Wassnât for Luther, odds are the RCC would have disappeared from the landscape. Remember the times of Luther. They were dark times for the RCC. Those were the times of Pope Borgia, truly an abomination to all. Indeed, most people donâ't even know Borgia was a Pope. Luther came along and challenged Rome to return to its roots; Rome responded by excommunicating him. The German prince saw that as an opportunity to tear away from under Romeâs yoke and pushed Luther into becoming a separate âchurchâ, German in nature. This predated Emglandâs Church of England by Henry (?) VIII.
So if youâre looking for Satan at work, look no farther than Rome and Borgia.
Rome is not mentioned in Revelation. The original churches are. Donât think Rome was even a church at the time of Revelation. It only came about as one of the Orthodox churches later. Thatâs why the âfirst schismâ was Rome leaving the collection of Orthodox churches in (?) 1054. And then Charlemagne seeing the potential for power via the Roman church, founded the Holy Roman Empire. Thatâs what put the RCC on the map - Charlemagne, not Peter.
Christianity was moved from a persecuted religion to favour by Constantine the Great, back about 310 AD. It was officially made the religion of the Roman Empire under Theodosius I in 380 AD. All this is long after Peter and the Disciples and long before the schism in 1054. This was a long standing fight over control, Rome-centric vs Orthodox-centric (Eastern Roman Empire).
Friend, do not be deceived, two words put RCC into affect, divine order.
To deny it is to deny Christ as Christ is heir of the Father, Christ instituted the church based on the principal of fatherhood hence
which means father.
The very rock is just that , principal of father, of hierarchy, of delegation of authority.
Can it be denied bad actors enter in? Not when one of the twelve betrayed Jesus, so then can new bad actors play the same?
You brought up and into the discussion a bad actor but not the creation of the modern state of Israel.
But, I love your attempt to cut to the quick
as it brings up A Quote from St. Catherine of Siena:
Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: âThey are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!â But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.
See, you can deny the Lord by your actions rather than your words
i.e. to deny His church is to deny Him, deny His authority, deny His design and to deny trust in Him.
I think you and I read scripture very differently. You seem to approach scripture as a single line quest. I look at it as a narrative. SO, if you have a line you ponder over, you first look at the line for what it means directly, then at the surrounding text to get the general sense of what is being talked about, then the Jewish custom and tradition.
You made the comment that Judas âbetrayedâ Jesus. In the Bible, however, that part is mostly written in Greek. The word used in Greek isnâtbetray but hand over. Those are two very different words AND meanings in Greek. The first is to an act of malice, while the second is an act of surety - as in making a deal, then handing over your eldest son to be kept as surety until the deal is completed appropriately. But when you read scripture and you substitute in âhand overâ instead of âbetrayâ, you find a very different sense.
Hmmm, I read that a couple times, ate lunch, wondered if I should attempt to steer back to modern Israel or exactly what.
Your opinion of my quest is fine, its fair, the first step in a quest is an important one too
So, as a quest, another important thing to consider is to stick to the core premise, to be very careful in not becoming so distracted you fall out of line.
One exceedingly great danger is
the fact they are damnable is that the cause you to veer of course.
So, what then is a heresy?
If we dig into greek, hebrew, latin itâs not a bad thing perâse, it is dangerous as context might not fit, the words may have been said, but they may have been recorded amiss, same as we do here now.
The Septuagintâs safety was remembered as inspired or providential harmony among many Jewish interpreters. The 1611 KJVâs safety was procedural: committees, review, and correction, so when we use words like betray and they may well fit being handed over, its a firm accepted doctrine that event of handing over betrayed confidence, faith, trust etc.
When an individual accepts
then great care needs to be taken to inspect the accepted doctrine or we may end up with damnable heresies.
Iâm not trying to say a person is wrong to seek out hidden things, but to be very careful in doing so that they do not bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Now, back to the point, Israel as a geographical point on earth means what now that Jesus has become the final sacrifice?
Can you support rebuilding a temple designed for sacrifice if you accept Jesus is the final sacrifice?
Or better answered than asked is the Christian gospel does not need a restored sacrifice system.
It needs the cross.
So, you either pick up your cross and follow Him, or you can champion to rebuild the temple for worship, but you can not do both, Israel is antichrist.
It is that black and white, there are two types of people, believers and non believers, until the end and then there shall be one fold, and one shepherd only.
One has to believe her correct to cuddle up to Satan is a good thing before one believes that qoute.
If as you say is correct then a lot of people are gonna split the gates of Hell wide open . Or is it just those deceived by the Catholic( Universal) church of Rome ?
Phillip preached Jesus to the Eunuch and He believed and was baptized.
That my friend is all one need worry about .
Who is the real Israel .
I will show you as you say in the Bible.
Galatians 3:7 KJV
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christâs, then are ye Abrahamâs seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3 : 26-29
Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ
Israel is any one Who lives anywhere is the world who has accepted Christ Jesus as Lord.
So let me ask you , I heard many many years ago that missionaries were winning people to Christ in Israel.
Thsy are blinded.
Vut does that mean we should drop a Nuke on em since a large majority arent even true blood of Saved in Christ . Nope We should back Israel. And we should fully back thw USA since we probably have the largest number of Jews seed of Abraham through Christ which is me and you.
This of course you understand is not the Israel currently running the US. which is the Israel created by the Belford Declaration, thus an arm of Britain and who Trump has allied with over the American people.
I do think its funny how you put that, and it makes sense of course, but the quote is not meant to get you cuddle with Satan, itâs meant to make you so sure in your faith and trust in God that you can feel safe to do so.
It is backed by our Lords word
so, if the Pope were sitting is Satans seat as it were, the power of the Emperor of Rome, will Jesus applaud you for running, or holding fast?
Thatâs the thinking, but ask it a different way, are you comfortable where you are?
Were any of the 12 disciples ever comfortable?
So if youâve found a safe comfortable place, is it the place you should be?
That is how you should be looking at it, who is starting the war now?
Do Christians start war?
The entire Iran conflict is at the behest of Israel, hence Trump choosing Israel over the American people, why and how do you think Massie just lost his seat/race in KY?
Much of what you say is true in general. One should always be careful in reading scripture. ?Have you never experienced the sense you know what a passage means, only to join a group of Christians and suddenly have a ârevelationâ on the true meaning. I have. It is humbling. Here Iâve spent sometimes weeks thinking on a specific passage, only to have a lightening bolt hit me with a different concept - ONLY in the midst of honest Christians discussing the gospel. I truly believe the Holy Spirit comes down when a group of Christians get together and blesses their efforts. I can come to no other conclusion.
?Where did Jesus go after He died. Most modern preachers (that is both priests and pastors) say he descended into Hell; Their only justification for that take is some verse in Peter - another of the âone linersâ. But consider the evidence. ?Where does Jesus say heâs going to drop in to Hades for a little sojorn. NO WHERE! But what Jesus DOES say is to the bandits hanging on either side of Him, â**43 **And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradiseâ (Luke 23:43). So our Lord and Savior did NOT go to Hades; He went to Heaven.
?What about the cry of, â**34 **And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?â (Mark 15:34). I hear pastors say that it was Jesusâ darkest moment, when the Father forsook Him. That makes no sense to me. After all, Jesus is God; csnât very well for sake Himself. But consider to whom was this said. Well, surrounding Him at that time were - the women and His half brother, James. They would most likely be illiterate, BUT they knew the Torah by heart. So when Jesus says, âEloi, Eloi, lama sabachthaniâ they would immediately recognize that as the beginning of Psalm 22. Thatâs too long to quote here, but go look it up and read it. I wil tell you what I think it means. Psalm 22 is an eirilly description psalm of just what happens on Calvary, right down to the throwing of dice for the garments. It is written by David some 700 years before Christ. So it is prophesied in scripture JUST what would happen to Him - and He is telling that to the women!
God head, trinity, think US govt, Judicial, Legislative and Executive , all the US Govt but individually.
Jesus is the Son, we pray to God in His name, we get help
Now, there is more we do not know but get hints of, i.e. gods.
Satan mixes truth
he promised weâd be as gods, and lo and behold, God verified it as true
âone of usâ implies a race of gods, itâs a rabbit trail but my point is Jesus is the Word and was there in the beginning, that may well mean beginning of earth, i.e. creation, so itâs not a stretch to say Jesus is God, but He is not God the Father.
This is where things get even more mysterious, the Romans adopted Greek gods, the chief/head deity being Jupiter, which means god-father
My point, things are likely much older than we guess, and old things, old times/people may not have been as naive as we guess, they may have in fact been smarter or more in the know than we are.
A good rabbit trail for that is
but, what is it?
We can only guess really, same as all those old Greek gods, I find
very interesting as many artists will credit unknown influences, the work they put out is exceptional as well, but, I digress.
Ahh yes, the apostles creed, but if you recall I warned to not get hung up on things, youâll get stuck, I have had to put a number of things in a suspended state, like every single image of Jesus you see to me is not even close, for one, long hair?
It doesnât jive for me, what would is black curly hair
Did Jesus go to hell?
Many say God has no Son, so whether we take one view or the other, itâs up to us to decide what to believe and what to settle on and in the end it may not be best to be to stringent and to be flexible.
Heart of earth is rather hell sounding, no?
This is true, and very astute, but there are many contradictions in the bible, this makes the church more important too, the bible is written history, you yourself say
and the new testament records the early church, the church has survived past that, when you take a sola scriptura view you effectively kill the church, you effectively serve the created more than the Creator,
I think a lot of Times scripture and its view is interpreted from ones own views as to how they should serve Jesus Christ. Its obvious that different views exist. However the saying from the cross you mention has to be looked at from our human view point. Jesus was 100% God and 100% Man at the same time . The exclamation from the cross showed Jesus Knowing that God Who can not look upon sin had to turn his face from him. But just a little while later He commends his spirit into his Father hands.
The other exclaimation about paradise . Is the holding place of the faithful dead who died believing in God like Adam,David , the theif on the cross. That paradise was a holding place for those who had not been indwelt with the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit who in essence cleans ours . The true atonement for sin had just been made and after that wa accomplished then those in that paradise ( abrahams bosom) we read of in Luke 16 that Christ talks about ) were now able to be brought out. And taken into the presense of God. Because God cannot look upon sin. Jesus had in essence taken away their sin guiltiness and paid the price and they were then set free because Jesus had the keys to death Hell and the grave( the power over them) ( alot of people think the devil is in hell but he isnât he is loose and ruining lives daily. Thats ine if the greatest tricks the devil ever convinced people that he wasnt a threat cause he was locked up. Hell in its current form is full of wicked dead souls who died in sin not believeing in Jesus for salvation.
This thread has been worth rereading several times. There are many interesting items to be found and contemplated.
I for one, tend to agree with @WV460HUNTER about St. Catherine of Siennaâs quote. I do not have the full context, so it may actually mean something different than what it seems to be on face value. But taken as the quote that you made, @Robert , I am very uncomfortable with the whole idea that one is supposed to cuddle up to Satan just because the Lord allowed him to become the head of the RCC. Go back to foundational texts - to wit, Job. ?Did not Satan demolish Job just to try to point out to God that supposedly Job was a good man ONLY because the Lord blessed him with many gifts. And to a degree Satan does succeed - at least in getting Job to think he is owed a right to hear why the Lord so chastised him, and try to defend himself. THAT is putting oneself up to the same level as God. And God then speaks to him, asking him, who controls the land, sea, and air. ?Who controls the weather, etc. Job admits God does, butt he has not yet fully repented and accepted his role vs God. So God goes on yet another whole chapter showing Job just how insignificant he really is. And Job then fully repents and accepts God as ultimate ruler. ThEN God rewards Job yet again for his penance. But note, at no time does Job accept Satan as head of anything ! Job only accepts GOD as head of ANYTHING!
We have been given free will by the Lord. I presume He means us to use that - and to chose righteousness over evil. The current pope for instance, strikes me as in the evil class. In that case, ?do I follow his rules or simply neglect them - as not from a legitimate source (JUST like the Borgias). I would suspect that is the decision the the Lord is looking for members of the RCC to make. JUST as He looked to Job to make the correct decision. And He probably looked for the then-members of the RCC to make during the Borgia âreign of terrorâ so to speak.
I personally donât confuse the RCC with the pope. The church is the church; its man-elected leader just may be yet another test Satan is making on the faithful, just as Job was tested. WE donât know. But there is scriptural reason to continue to believe in the RCC while rejecting the âworksâ of an evil pope. I am not of the RCC but a church far older than the RCC, so I donât have that question to contend with. But you do.
The second point that I want to raise is that âChristâs churchâ is not of this world but in Heaven. Jesus says so to Pilote in the famous scene where Pilote examines him to see if he is guilty of anything worthy of death. Note that in Revelation John speaks of some warnings to specific churches here on earth, while praising some. ?So how were the churches here on earth run. Well, at their inception, it was a lot like a big bible study, wherein a group of Christians gathered to learn of the word of the gospel, to try to honour our King and Savior, the Lord Jesus the Christ. It is only a number of centuries later that "organized church structure came into existence. I look at that as the priestly class attempting to control religion just as the Sadducees tried to control the Jewish religion - for their own personal gain, of power, wealth, comfort - all the things the Sadducees attempted to do to the Jews and Jesus objected to so strenuously. Both systems are at least somewhat suspect - for the same reasons.
Yes, that does sound uncomfortable and Iâm sorry if I made that seem to be the statement, it of course is a difficult thing to grasp on its own let me try to explain, I believe St Catherine meant it, which is the same as is written here
so why fear?
Let me try to back up:
The Father is the true Rock.
Christ is the heir and builder of the church.
Simon receives a rock title and official capacity, think legal
That capacity is incorporeal because it exists as title, office, and delegated authority.
The paternal pattern behind authority is older and visible in the father-root: pater.
The rock-pattern appears in Peter/Cephas.
The church office duplicates, in servant form, the Father Rock pattern, but only by delegation, never as source.
Pillars here again reinforces foundation/stone
So if you can let go of Peter as a name, grasp it as a legal/fictious title, one that mimics the father/foundation, âpaternal governanceâ, again like the US govt mimics the trinity, then you get itâs built on the true rock/father system.
So, why would you withdraw from this?
Think of what the reformation did, just that, it withdrew, it said no, we do not trust your authority to save us
you resist the Father giving the Son as Heir His authority
But⌠let me give you some credit, we know as scripture says
and we know the King did seize all the churchâs property, he seated himself as head of the church, based of course on adultery and rebellion, but, forceful none the less, seems Trump did much the same himself
soâŚthe credit is, maybe the King, maybe Trump, both took the kingdom of heaven themselves?
A theory of course, if valid, does it bear weight on others too?
Can the church of England offer its members heaven?
I doubt it of course, extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, Unam Sanctum ,To resist papal authority is to be in defiance of God would be valid from one given the keys to the kingdom, but as you put to me
and the reason for me is the same trust St Catherine has, to slumber in Satans bosom with no fear.
Why fear?
What happens to the fearful?
fearful with sorcerers, i.e. witchcraft, same as rebellion
I agree, something with affects that last forever deserve much contemplation and we know that Satan is a subtle deceiver, and BTW
Pince with power, must be head of something
It is not disobedient to try the spirits
go find an RCC, take one of their OCIA classes, test the spirit.
No that comes from Christ Jesus , No denomination can offer it again only Christ Jesus .
Philip didnt need a pope or a priest or any humans authority to lead thw Eunuch to the Lord Jesus .
All He had to do was preach to him Jesus , make sure He believed Jesus for salvation then He was Baptized .
Many churches RCC for one do it backwards. Baptizing then going through later what they call confirmation.
That completely flys in the face of Acts chapter 8.
The Eunuch wanted to get baptized but Philip said He must first believe . After He confessed that He believed then ths chariot was commanded to stop and He Baptized him.
Again there will be no churches in Heaven or in the New Jerusalem.
Its not whats over the door of the church that you attend that makes you a child of God .
You seem to be referring to one-sided reports of the âflour massacreâ of 2024.
For background, at various times Israel has sent humanitarian aid to Gaza or facilitated the transfer of aid into Gaza sent by other nations. However, there is a severe challenge in ensuring that the aid is not redirected to terrorist groups like Hamas. Aside from the issues of terrorists and lawless militias controlling the flow of food to civilians, aid shipments have been known to smuggle weapons to terrorists. Construction materials have been âdivertedâ to build invasion tunnels rather than hospitals, schools, and other essential civilian infrastructure. Because looting and raids on aid trucks are so common, drivers must be accompanied by armed guards, and trucks have special grilles and screens installed to protect the windshields from improvised projectiles and weapons.
The UNRWA is disincentivized from reporting the failure of delivering humanitarian aid. Since the aid is not theirs, they lose nothing when it is âdiverted.â Reporting the diversion would result in loss of political power and funding for the UNRWA, as well as increased monitoring. That would interfere with their salaries and kickbacks. So they are happy to continue allowing Hamas to get the shipments, rather than the civilians. This phenomenon is not unique to Gaza; there are other instances of this throughout the Middle East (the linked article lists Somalia, Ethiopia, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Afghanistan and Gaza). According to the UNâs own statistics, out of 3,140 trucks sent in, over 88% failed to reach their intended destination.
With that in mind, the Israeli account of the February 29, 2024 tragedy is consistent with the recent regional history.
âThis morning, the IDF coordinated a convoy of 38 trucks to provide additional humanitarian assistance to the residents of northern Gaza. This humanitarian aid came from Egypt, went through a security screening at the Kerem Shalom humanitarian crossing in Israel, and then entered Gaza, for distribution by private contractors,â Hagari says.
âAs these vital humanitarian supplies made their way toward Gazans in need, thousands of Gazans [rushed] the trucks, some began violently pushing and trampling other Gazans to death, looting the humanitarian supplies,â he says.
âŚ
âIn this video, the tanks that were there to secure the convoy saw the Gazans being trampled and cautiously tried to disperse the mob with a few warning shots,â he says.
âWhen the hundreds became thousands and things got out of hand, the tank commander decided to retreat to avoid harm to the thousands of Gazans that were there,â Hagari says.
âYou can see how cautious they were when they were backing up. They were backing up securely, risking their own lives, not shooting at the mob,â he continues.
âThe Israel Defense Forces operates according to the rules of engagement and international law. No IDF strike was conducted toward the aid convoy,â Hagari says
Dozens of Palestinians who rushed the last truck in the convoy began to move toward an IDF tank and troops stationed at the militaryâs checkpoint, the investigation finds.
An officer stationed in the area ordered to fire warning shots in the air as the Palestinians were within a few dozen meters, as well as gunfire at the legs of those who continued to move toward the troops, the probe says.
Stan I would never doubt that or that our Lord can save whom He wishes.
However, lets view your firm belief in scripture and His Son contrary to Jews
Praise God we have a Jewish brother here who you could try to share your view with and of course in turn listen to why he does not accept it.
Now, mirror that with your unbelief in delegation of authority.
Here are three verses that like the verse above, tell it straight, God has a Son, and the Son is the heir with all power and authority given from the Father
then He gave it to His Church, to Simon who He made Peter
and then He left for awhile
So you see if you believe scripture then there you have it
on its face.
There are however more than a few buts..
but the Second Vatican Council Lumen Gentium seemed to soften the hard dogma with the stance of the RCC being a light to the world, and but Jesus Himself said
and but
to name but a couple, of course you know the normal protestant verses used to claim faith alone.
Those two above reenforce faith alone.
Now, watch the trickery here,
tell me are you already an RCC believer and donât even know it?
What I mean is many will tell you Sunday service is pagan
and Mass is held on Sunday, the first day of the week with biblical backing
butâŚcontrary to the commandments Moses received and a big protestant point.
Yet to say so and still worship on Sunday is accepting the Church can bind on earth and in heaven, it is exercising itâs authority to do so.
or it is violating the 4th commandment.
Which do you observe?
Saturday as God commanded
or Sunday as the Church bound?
It is simple really, Jesus has the power, He gave His power to the Church while He is gone, the Church then says Sunday.
So therefore Sunday.
To deny that is to deny Jesus.
So it is good you can name it as such which is what I was questioning, seems we are aligned both that and your article
and itâs not that I think you as a Jew pulled the trigger on innocent people trying to eat, I donât.
But you seem to assert its not true when your own link provides
âthe unfortunate incident resulted in dozens of Gazans killed and injured.â
If somehow there was a threat I donât know of and is justified then thatâs different, but the videos and reports are not consistent with that, nothing in them presented a danger to men in tanks.
What may be consistent is people are afraid of Israel and that includes the media who even wishing to report the truth must soft peddle the truth and allow for at minimum doubt.
The sucky part is when people are lumped together, Iâve watched/listened to videos where Jews condemn Israel for its actions, therefore care must be had to ensure a double crime does not occur, that Jews are not automatically equated to Israelâs actions, and that my friend is worse than an uphill battle, made worse when you yourself are seemingly accepting Israel does no wrong, or perhaps as Iâve heard other Jews, again in videos, preach there is no wrong in doing whatever it takes to achieve a directive.
But, like Sunday for Christians thatâs up to you to decide, vex your neighbor, or love your neighbor.
Iâm sure many Jews choose the latter so I could never say Jews are my enemy, instead I need to accept
until then as we donât know one Jew from another so easily then for many history remains the same
And that leads to Charlie Kirk , Tucker Carlson and many many many more modern theories/reports of those who oppose Israel.
Your reply is actually two-in-one; a reply to @WV460HUNTER , and a reply to @musashiaharon on the Gaza incident.
Let me reverse the order of my responce. What @musashiaharon says about the IDF I believe to be true. There were any number of Gazans injured in their attempt to hijack the convoy. THAT is on them, not the IDF, who it would seem took extraordinary measures to not injure the civilians, who clearly didnât care - either about the guarding IDF OR their fellow âciviliansâ. This is a consistent attitude among arabs, and muslims in general. Since I personally believe islam is a Satanically inspired "movementâ, aimed to mimic and countervail Christianity, which at the founding time of islam was having extraordinary success in spreading the Word, I find little among that bunch that seems to be of value in hugely protecting. Yes, any man can be converted to Christ, and it has happened to muslims, but it seems a preciously rare finding.
Along this same vein, I would submit that you, @Robert , appear to be spring-loaded against Israel. Your comments about Trump fighting Israelâs war is, in my mind, unsupported by any empirical data OTHER THAN they have stood as our allies in this endeavor. To claim that the war against Persia is unjustified simply flies in the face of history, the open comments of numerous previous presidents, Republicans AND Democrat, and the history of Persiaâs interference not only in the Mideast - which has strategically threatened our lifeâs blood of oil but has taken many, many American citizen lives, both military and civilian, and has largely gone unresponded to. I, for one, am just flabbergasted that no previous president didnât take blood for all the IEDâs Persia used against our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
To your first comment about the RCC, popes, and the church on earth, I would submit that your quote is again cherry-picking verses, and that it confuses the church(s) on earth with The Church of Jesus, established by the 2nd Covenant, which Christ established with ALL mankind. Note THAT church is in Heaven, generally referred to allegorically in scripture as Christâs bride. You quote One verse to justify your response. Here are the next TWO verses after your quote.
"Matthew 18:19-20
King James Version
**19 **Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
**20 **For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them"
That hardly argues for there being only ONE church that is acceptable. Peter was important in the beginning of Jesusâ ministry, often because he was so often wrong! AFTER Jesusâ death and resurrection he sort of disappears and the brunt of the work of spreading the gospel appears to have fallen to Luke (Acts) and Paul. Peter has a very small footprint in the NT. hard make a rational case for him being the leader of ALL CHRISTIAN CHURCHES. He undoubtedly had an effect on the Romeâs contingent, but Romeâs effect was far more involved with Charlemagne.
My stand would be a lot closer to @WV460HUNTER âs in that Revelation appears to demonstrate there were numerous churches acceptable to the Lord, right from the gitgo. My sense has long been that Jesus always spoke as if there was ONLY ONE CHURCH - IN HEAVEN, and that THAT church was what might be called ânon-denominationalâ today, in as much as it had its own criteria for acceptance, and that acceptance didnât demand adherence to ONE denomination but individual effort to live up to Jesusâ requirements.
Then youâve not read as I wrote, it is not I against Israel it is Israel that is antichrist.
Broad statement, surely unfair in the broad respect regarding individuals in Israel who love Christians too, but if you read and researched what I wrote, that Israel is a manufactured state by largely Great Britian and of course you studied all the other simultaneous factors, Ukraine being staged as a proxy war against Russia, I had this all in detail on Full30 forum as the White House had long standing sanction warnings in place against any nation that provoked Ukraine, then, like we seen in Iraq the WMDâs on Russiaâs border until Russia had to act, instantly Russiaâs assets frozen, the U.S., EU, G7 to the tune of up to 330 billion, it was not what Russia wanted to do as they knew it would happen butâŚat some point you must act.
Then Israel became a proxy for war with Iran, what many call WWIII kicks off, others say Armageddon, whatever the case its all biblical.
Who do you think this fits,
some future not yet existing people?
And while I say it is the proxy for our war with Iran thatâs likely reverse, but our hands are not clean no matter who pulls the strings.
Iâve said before there are a lot of contradictions in scripture, made worse when you use a variety of scripture, I love the 1611âs footnotes as they offer alternative views, why?
Maybe as each translator was paid by the crown?
Have you ever read the alternate translations in the footnotes?
When the secondary translation was footnoted, but fits, and the translators were earning their living paid by the crown, what do you think happned?
?
You wont find those anywhere but in the printed text aside form perhaps an online resource that scanned the pages, made worse by removing the apocrypha and of course, its footnotes too.
The two verses you posted are excellent verses, and in Mass when the priest prays over the sacramentâs and he or an extraordinary minister offers you the body of Christ, and you agree, say Amen, what has just happened?
And when you think on that, think on this
Verily means truly.
You believe Jesus is the only connection to God correct?
The one mediator?
If by holy communion administered by the church you are fed, and you are fed the body of our Lord, then what are the two verses above accomplishing?
What other church are you going to find this done in?
Its not contention, not debate, its light, its study
Since this verse is part of the Jewish Scriptures, here is how Jews understand it.
This chapter begins with King Solomonâs poetic confession to G.d: that in his arrogance he erred in violating the Divine commands addressed to Jewish kings:
Deuteronomy 17:16 Only, he may not acquire many horses for himself, so that he will not bring the people back to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, for the L.rd said to you, âYou shall not return that way any more.â 17 And he shall not take many wives for himself, and his heart must not turn away, and he shall not acquire much silver and gold for himself.
Thus Rashi explains Proverbs 30 in context:
Proverbs 30:1 The words of Agur, the son of Yakeh, the prophecy; the words of the man concerning, âG.d is with me; yea, G.d is with me, and I will be able.â The words of Agur, the son of Yakeh. The words of Solomon, who gathered [âAgurâ] understanding [binah â âbenâ = son of] and vomited it [vâhikiâah â âYakehâ]. The Sages interpreted it thus.
⌠the words of the man concerning, âG.d is with me;â said the man (that is Solomon) this prophecy concerning himself because of âG.d is with meâ - because he relied on his wisdom to increase gold, horses and wives, which he was forbidden to increase. And so he said, "G.d is with me, and I will be able. I will increase wives, and they will not turn my heart away; I will increase gold, and I will not turn away; I will increase horses, and I will not take the people back to Egypt. [These are the reasons given in Deuteronomy 17:16-17 for the prohibitions. Solomon trusted himself more than the Scripture and said he would not falter - but when he sinned, he found that he did falter.]
⌠2 For I am more boorish than any man, neither do I have manâs understanding. For I am more boorish. Because I relied on my wisdom in a matter that the Holy One, blessed be He, is concerned lest one come to sin. 3 Neither have I learned wisdom, nor do I know the knowledge of the holy ones. Neither have I learned wisdom. nor do I know the knowledge of the holy ones, for I subtracted or added to the words of Moses.
This finally brings us to verse 4, which you cited. Rashi (paraphrasing the Pesikta DeRav Kahana) connects it to Moses:
4 Who ascended to heaven and descended? Who gathered wind in his fists? Who wrapped the waters in a garment? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know? Who ascended to heaven. like Moses? [Via Mount Sinai (Ex. 19:3, 19:20, etc.).] Who gathered wind. The soot [piâach = that which is blown â vayipach = and He blew (Gen. 2:7). Synonymously here, âruâachâ or âwindâ, as in âwind of His mouthâ = âruâach pivâ (Ps. 33:6)] of the furnace. [Moses initiated the plague of boils by scattering soot of the furnace in Exodus 9:10.] Who wrapped the waters. âThe depths were congealed;â (Ex. 15:8): âThe floods stood upright like a heap,â (ibid.) through Mosesâs prayer [at the splitting of the Sea of Reeds]. Who established. the Tabernacle, through whose establishment all the ends of the earth were firmly established. In this way, it is expounded in the Pesikta.[1] What is his name and what is the name of his son. If you say that there already was one like him, tell me what his sonâs name is; i.e., what family is descended from him, and we will know who he is. if you know. if you know who he is. Now how did you [O Solomon] not fear to transgress his words? [Are you greater than Moses? Do you not know what was written, âAnd there was no other prophet who arose in Israel like Moses, whom the L.rd knew face to faceâ? (Deut. 34:10)]
From King Solomon, we are warned that even if the Torah appears sometimes to give rationales for the commandments, we should still not presume to fully understand it. Even if it appears to us that we can avoid the situation the Torah warns us about, we may not dispense with the command on the basis of our reasoning, where G.d gave no such license. â[Between] the words of the master and the words of a student, whose words do you heed?â (Kiddushin 42b).
5 Every word of G.d is refined; He is a shield for all who take refuge in Him. Every word of G.d is refined. Purified [of dross; mâzukakah], and He did not write anything unnecessary. I should have been careful. 6 Do not add to His words, lest He prove to you, and you be found a liar. lest He prove to you, and you be found a liar. He will prove to your face that through your addition you have come to sin, and certainly if you subtract.
I believe we are aligned on a lot.
Pesikta DeRav Kahana 1 Rabbi Yochanan and Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish: Rabbi Yochanan said, âOn the day that Moses completedâ (Num. 7:1) â on the day that enmity was eradicated [kalut, which also means âcompletedâ] from the world. For before the Tabernacle had been established, there was enmity, and jealousy, and strife and quarrel, and division in the world [between the upper and lower worlds? Shabbat 88bâ89a is about how Moses debated the angels to take the Torah from the Heavens and won their admiration, before transcribing it and placing it in the Tabernacle]; but once the Tabernacle was established, it emplaced love, and endearment, and neighborliness, and righteousness, and peace in the world⌠âEstablishing the Tabernacleâ (Num. 7:1) â Rabbi Yehoshua in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai: âEstablishing the Tabernacleâ is not written here; rather âEstablishing et the Tabernacle.â What was established along with (et) it? The world was established along with it. Before the Tabernacle was established, the world was tottering; once the Tabernacle was established, the world had a solid base."
Yes, that does sound uncomfortable and Iâm sorry if I made that seem to be the statement, it of course is a difficult thing to grasp on its own let me try to explain, I believe St Catherine meant it, which is the same as is written here
