Our Jewish population is fighting back

The parable of the wicked husbandmen does identify the son as the heir, but its target is unfaithful leadership and the rejection of God’s messengers—not a blanket verdict against every Jew, nor a direct constitutional blueprint for a modern state.

Applying it to present-day political questions requires an additional argument; the parable itself does not supply that bridge. There is also a line worth keeping clear here: saying that Jesus is the promised heir, or that a particular interpretation of Israel’s role is wrong, is not automatically antisemitic.

Antisemitism begins when Jews as a people are treated as collectively guilty, conspiratorial, subhuman, or legitimate targets of hostility. Definitions used by governments or organizations may identify warning signs, but they do not turn every disputed theological claim into a crime.

Where something is criminal depends on the actual law and jurisdiction. The real danger is that both sides can use theological language as a shortcut—one side to demand political allegiance, the other to make collective accusations.


Kilroy was here

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I give up.

Show me where EXACTLY you and I disagree. You are saying the same thing only with a bunch of one-liners from Biblestudy thrown in.

I understand perfectly that Israel is a national entity, just as the USA is. Israel is an ally. I would say a much better one than UK, France, & Germany have been, despite the AMERICAN LIVES we gave to save their asses.

You are upset we seemingly (possibly) went to war with Persia because Israel was going to, and the fall-out was going to be loss of AMERICAN LIVES - by Persia, as retaliation for ISRAEL’S attack. Intel is never perfect, BUT we have to take into consideration two things: (1) loss of American lives IS our national interest, and (2) every president since Carter has said Persia may not be allowed to achieve nuclear status. But none have done anything about that. Lotta talk, no action. If, indeed, we did go to war for that reason, then more power to President Trump. He was not only looking out for American lives but doing what a whole bunch of previous presidents didn’t have the stones to do.

One last bit. There have been a whole bunch of anti-Israel “demonstrations, riots, and general bad behavior”. Those have NOT apparently been largely Americans doing the demonstrating; rather they have been “foreign students”, paid gangsters (best word I can think of for Antifa), and other foreign-bought saboteurs. The 1A is pretty specific about who and what can demonstrate (PEACEFULLY!) and foreigners are not included. Allowing them to do so is essentially allowing a foreign nation to “influence” our law makers. You certainly wouldn’t allow China to bankroll our elections (although it is apparent that they have, indeed, done just that); ?why should we allow foreign “influence “ in the form of protests, etc. affect us.

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How long before that did Eisenhower warn us about the military industrial complex?

Where do you think we are now?

Who do you think is actually leading the show, the elected president, or the permanent machinery of defense contractors, intelligence agencies, foreign allies, lobbyists and institutions that survives every administration?

That’s how I got started, In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is described as a mental phenomenon in which people unknowingly or subconsciously hold fundamentally conflicting cognitions.

So for 2000 years we’ve had antichrist, sitting where, doing what?

Denying Jesus came in the flesh.

No, it is a trojan horse and rather than give up you are dragging it through the gates.

Like it or not, we’re a Christian nation, liberty is ability to not chose that for yourself, yet now

hmmmm :thinking:

That’s America?

So…that’s America too?

That’s America?

The justification starts with a prediction: Israel was going to attack Iran, Iran was supposedly going to retaliate against American forces, therefore Trump had to strike Iran first to “protect American lives.”

Then Americans die. Israel didn’t attack, Iran didn’t attack, America attacked.

That’s America?

America entered a war over retaliation that had not yet happened, to an Israeli attack America did not have to join. Once we became belligerents, the hypothetical danger became real. Then Trump approaches the War Powers deadline, declares the conflict effectively over, resumes attacking, and claims a fresh 60-day clock without Congress.

That is the absurdity: Israel’s intended war creates the supposed threat to American lives; that threat becomes the excuse for America to enter the war; Americans actually die; and the President then treats a statutory limit on his war power like a reset button,fight, pause, reset, fight again.

No, this is all military industrial complex.

Like AA that’s truly the first step.

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Eisenhower’s warning was about the military-industrial complex acquiring influence over policy, budgets, and public judgment—not necessarily about it replacing elected government outright.

I think the harder truth is that presidents lead within a permanent national-security system they did not create and cannot easily escape. That system includes defense contractors, intelligence agencies, lobbyists, allied governments, career officials, and media interests.

It can narrow the choices presented to a president, manufacture urgency, and make military action appear like the only responsible option. But that still leaves the president accountable.

“The machinery made me do it” is an explanation of pressure, not an absolution. If the public is told American lives are at risk, then the administration owes us evidence, a defined objective, and a clear explanation of why force is preferable to every alternative.


Kilroy was here

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No, the government doesn’t “owe us” anything but looking out for our best interests. There is such a thing as “national security”. Some things are secret for a good reason. I will grant that there is always a risk of overclassifying, and we have in the past, but this admin has been declassifying a whole bunch of things.

Perhaps at some future date the president will stand up and tell the people that we went to war with Persia because he felt American lives were at stake. But he is under no obligation to reveal secrets and sources. Indeed, he is obligated to protect such sensitive sources and methods. That is one of the conundrums of a modern democratic entity - how much and when to reveal information that could harm the nation. Snowden is a great example of just this. He attempted to go through normal channels to report abuses of the spying - and got nowhere. He eventually fled the country and published them from the outside. THAT undoubtedly did us significant harm. But we brought it on ourselves. Those in power refused to listen to his complaints and take them seriously. Then the bill came due. Flock cameras may well go the same way - way too much abuse is coming up with them.

“No good deed goes unpunished.”

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The distinction I’d draw is between an obligation to disclose every secret and an obligation to operate within law, constitutional limits, and accountable oversight. National security can justify secrecy; it cannot turn oversight into a dead letter.

Snowden is a useful warning from both directions. Mishandling classified material can cause real damage, but when lawful internal channels fail repeatedly, the system has created the conditions for a leak.

Flock cameras raise the same issue in a different form: surveillance may have legitimate uses, but routine access, retention, and sharing need hard limits before abuse becomes the default.


Kilroy was here

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This I agree with most in your post, the rest I’m reluctant to even attempt to rationalise with you.

You do make it difficult with this:

Without a complete legal description of American government I can sum up the analytical model as principal agent.

What that means is at the end of the day you are responsible as principal for everything your agent does.

What Snowden did was try to make principals aware of the abuse of their agents, his actions clearly did no harm as nothing has changed, in fact, his actions showed the American populous is well adapt to being kept in the dark, that’s where I have to look at the fact it did no good then, then consider Einstein’s definition of insanity, as well as

America threw off the British Crown.

It did not throw off the British system.

That distinction matters.

During the American Civil War, Britain officially declared neutrality while British industry supplied the machinery of war. The North bought British arms in enormous quantities. Confederate agents bought through Britain too, and British shipyards produced the Alabama and other Confederate commerce raiders that destroyed more than 150 Northern vessels. Britain eventually paid the United States $15.5 million for the damage caused by its failure to enforce neutrality.

Look at the structure.

Britain did not need to conquer Washington.

It did not need to conquer Richmond.

Its merchants, shipyards, financiers and industrial capacity were inside the war while Britain officially stood outside it.

That is an early form of what Eisenhower would later call the military-industrial complex.

The mistake is imagining that such a complex stops at a national border.

It does not.

Weapons, banking, intelligence, research, shipbuilding, technology, treaties and political relationships form a network. Governments change. Flags change. The network survives.

Then comes Palestine.

In 1917, “His Majesty’s Government” issued the Balfour Declaration supporting the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine.

Britain does not deny what followed. A century later its own government proudly called Britain’s role in Israel’s creation “pioneering.” Boris Johnson said Balfour’s words “laid the foundations of the State of Israel” and were indispensable to its creation.

Britain put the piece on the board.

Then the apparent center of Western power crossed the Atlantic.

America emerged from World War II as the military giant.

So did Britain disappear?

Look at the machinery.

In 1958 Britain and America entered the Mutual Defence Agreement allowing the exchange of nuclear materials, technology and information. The Polaris Sales Agreement followed in 1963. Those arrangements still underpin nuclear cooperation today. In 2024 the countries even moved to eliminate the agreement’s old ten-year renewal requirement.

That is not nostalgia for an old alliance.

That is the military-industrial complex joined at the nuclear level.

Then intelligence.

Five Eyes places Britain and America inside the same intelligence structure with Australia, Canada and New Zealand. The countries do not merely exchange Christmas cards. Their defense ministers openly coordinate security policy and intelligence relationships.

Then AUKUS.

Read the language they use themselves.

They are breaking down barriers to information sharing.

Integrating defense industrial bases.

Creating license-free defense trade.

Co-developing weapons.

Combining research.

Building interoperable systems.

The Pentagon has spoken of a “fundamental shift” toward more closely integrating the systems themselves. Another official AUKUS statement says the countries are working across the entire capability-development chain, from requirements to development, industry and deployment.

One British official described the objective even more plainly years ago: a complex and largely invisible web of Britons and Americans working inside one another’s establishments, laboratories and headquarters.

There is your military-industrial complex.

Britain lost the legal authority to command America in 1776.

Yet British personnel, technology, intelligence, nuclear policy, weapons development and industrial interests remain woven deep inside the American defense structure.

Not above it.

Inside it.

Now bring Israel back onto the board.

Britain helped create the political conditions from which Israel emerged.

Israel became an American military client and then an increasingly important military-technology partner.

And Section 219 of the proposed FY2027 NDAA goes considerably farther.

It directs the Pentagon to establish a United States–Israel Defense Technology Cooperation Initiative and appoint an executive agent to synchronize American and Israeli defense research, development, testing, evaluation, integration and industrial cooperation.

The bill specifically calls for identifying jointly developed and Israeli-origin technologies for possible integration into American military systems and programs of record.

The House record describes the technologies involved:

artificial intelligence;

cyber defense;

directed energy;

biotechnology;

network integration;

data fusion;

and sensitive research and development.

Stop there.

Look at the line.

British industrial power is embedded in an American civil war.

British state policy helps lay the foundation for Israel.

British and American military systems later become deeply integrated through nuclear agreements, intelligence networks and defense industry.

Israel becomes attached to the American military system.

Now Congress is considering moving Israel deeper into the research, technology, data and industrial architecture of that same system.

That does not prove a king in London is secretly issuing orders.

It reveals something more durable than an order.

Architecture.

The empire did not have to survive as a red section on a schoolroom map.

It could survive as relationships.

Treaties.

Banks.

Intelligence.

Weapons.

Research laboratories.

Defense contractors.

Technology standards.

Interoperability.

Supply chains.

And dependencies that become increasingly difficult to unwind.

That is the military-industrial complex viewed without pretending it ends at the American shoreline.

America may be the enormous body dancing across the world.

America supplies the money.

America supplies the aircraft carriers.

America supplies the bases.

America supplies the bombs.

America supplies the young men.

But Britain never had to remain the biggest man in the room to remain near the machinery that determines the music.

First it governed America.

Then it traded with America.

Then it armed the American war.

Then it joined America at the intelligence and nuclear core.

Meanwhile it helped place Israel on the board.

Now Israel is moving toward integration with the American military-industrial core as well.

The names changed.

The empire changed form.

The current did not simply disappear.

If you are still looking only for a crown giving orders to colonies, you are looking for an empire that died two hundred years ago.

Look at the machinery instead.

That is where the fiddle is.

And America is still dancing.

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No—Britain did not disappear. It lost primacy while its financial, military, intelligence, industrial, and diplomatic relationships were carried into an Anglo-American system.

My prior reply stayed abstract and missed your actual point: the machinery persisted through institutional continuity, not a clean transfer of power.


Kilroy was here

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You just said Britain persisted through institutional continuity rather than a clean transfer of power. Apply that same reasoning to Henry VIII and the English Church.

When the Crown broke with Rome, took supremacy over the church and absorbed church/monastic property, what actually changed, what remained in place, and where did the authority go?

Was that a new body replacing the old one or the existing body and machinery continuing under a different head?

It was not a clean replacement of one church by another. The English Church’s existing machinery largely remained: dioceses, bishops, parish churches, clergy, canon law, liturgy, courts, and local administration.

Most ordinary parish life continued, even while the Crown was changing the legal and theological framework above it. What changed was the location of ultimate jurisdiction.

Through Parliament, Henry VIII rejected papal authority, made the Crown “Supreme Head” of the Church of England, redirected appeals and church revenue away from Rome, and took control of appointments and discipline.

Authority moved from the pope’s universal jurisdiction to the English Crown acting through Parliament and royal officers. The dissolution of the monasteries was the great institutional and economic rupture.

Monastic houses were suppressed and their lands and wealth transferred to the Crown, which then sold or granted much of them to nobles and gentry. That created a new property-owning class with a direct interest in preserving the settlement.


Kilroy was here

Then follow that one step farther.

If the Crown did not create a new Christian population, but took the existing body of believers, parishes, clergy, property, revenues and institutional machinery and changed the authority at the top, what was actually powering the new settlement?

Did the Crown gain only church buildings and legal jurisdiction, or did it also gain the continuing social authority, obedience, wealth and labor of the same Christian body that had previously operated under Rome?

The Crown gained far more than buildings and jurisdiction. It captured the English Church’s existing social infrastructure: the parish clergy who preached, baptized, married, buried, taught obedience, and carried royal instructions into nearly every community. That made the settlement powerful because ordinary religious life could continue while its highest authority changed. The same parishioners supplied attendance, tithes, labor, and local compliance; the Crown redirected the institutional loyalty and revenues that had previously flowed through Rome. The genuinely new element was the political and economic alignment above that parish level:

  • Parliament gave the break with Rome legal force. - Royal injunctions and visitation enforced the new order. - The dissolution of monasteries transferred a vast property base. - New lay owners, officials, and beneficiaries acquired reasons to defend the settlement. - Resistance could be treated as disobedience to the Crown, not merely disagreement within the Church. So the Reformation’s engine was not a newly converted population. It was the state’s takeover of an old Christian society, followed by the redistribution of authority, wealth, and enforcement power. The people and much of the machinery persisted; the chain of command and the beneficiaries changed.

Kilroy was here

Then carry that same mechanism forward again. Britain did not need to keep direct possession of something to keep power moving through it.

It captured the English church without replacing the body. It lost formal rule over America while Anglo-American military, financial and intelligence machinery persisted. Then His Majesty’s Government issued Balfour, Britain administered Palestine, and the state of Israel emerged from that British-built political framework.

Britain later steps back, America becomes Israel’s great military patron, and now Israel is moving deeper into the American defense-industrial system.

Is Israel another instance of the same pattern—Britain establishes or captures the machinery, then relinquishes the visible position while the structure continues drawing power from somewhere else?

Did Britain really leave the stage, or did it build another instrument and let America supply the muscle?

The Crown does not have to make America dance by issuing orders.

It only has to keep laying the fiddle in America’s hands.

Yes—there is a real pattern there, but I’d qualify “instrument. ” Britain often built or exploited frameworks that outlasted direct British rule: legal systems, borders, financial ties, intelligence relationships, and military institutions.

Once those structures were established, another power could inherit and redirect them without London remaining visibly in charge. Israel fits part of that pattern, but not as a British puppet.

The Balfour Declaration and Mandate created a political framework, while Zionist institutions, Arab opposition, the Holocaust’s aftermath, the 1948 war, and later American policy all shaped the result. Israel has its own agency and has repeatedly acted in ways that complicated British and American preferences.

So Britain did leave the stage as sovereign ruler, but not necessarily as an architect whose work vanished. The stronger claim is institutional continuity: power survives when the machinery, assumptions, and dependencies remain after the original manager changes.

America may hold the fiddle now, but that does not prove the old player still controls the tune.


Kilroy was here

sum up now

The thread’s through-line is that power rarely vanishes when formal control ends. It changes hands through continuity—institutions, property, finance, alliances, and inherited habits—so the visible political break can hide a deeper persistence.

Applied to Henry VIII, Britain, and the Anglo-American relationship, the key question is not simply who ruled, but who inherited the infrastructure and learned to steer it. That explains the pattern without requiring a single all-powerful controller: interests survive, adapt, and recruit new custodians.


Kilroy was here

Good. Now put Israel back into that summary—Balfour, the Mandate, America inheriting the patron role, and Israel now moving into the American military-industrial architecture. Does your continuity rule still hold?

The continuity rule still holds, but the mechanism is more complicated than a single power simply handing Israel from Britain to America.

Balfour created a British commitment; the Mandate turned that commitment into an international administrative framework, with Britain controlling immigration, security, land policy, and political development.

The 1948 transition ended the Mandate, but it did not erase the diplomatic, legal, military, and economic relationships Britain had helped establish. America gradually inherited the patron role, especially after Suez and the Cold War.

Israel then became more than a client: it developed its own military, intelligence, technology, and defense industries, increasingly linking itself to America’s broader military-industrial and strategic architecture. That is reciprocal integration, not simple subordination.

So yes—the visible political actors changed, while institutional pathways, strategic habits, and material relationships persisted. The important qualification is that continuity explains structure; it does not prove every event was centrally directed or that Israeli and American interests are always identical.


Kilroy was here

America appears to hold the greatest raw power. Israel possesses disproportionate leverage over how some of that power is used. Britain sits unusually far upstream in the historical and institutional architecture through which both developed. ..do we have a military industrial complex?