Our Jewish population is fighting back

I’m a bit confused. What facts did you see that I missed?

I was asking for the legal basis of DOJ involvement.

The answer was that Dhillon is “based,” followed by her political record. That speaks to motive and character, not legal authority or facts.

It is good to see someone willing to enforce the law, but there is considerably more to this case than that.

Looking for the actual legal facts, DOJ filed its own action rather than intervening in the Jewish plaintiffs’ suit.

The complaint relies on 28 U.S.C. §§ 1331 and 1345 for jurisdiction, 34 U.S.C. § 12601 for enforcement authority, and 28 U.S.C. §§ 2201–2202 for declaratory and equitable relief.

That makes the case more unusual.

Section 12601 has traditionally been associated with patterns or practices of systemic law enforcement misconduct: excessive force, unlawful stops, searches or arrests, discriminatory policing, and similar conduct.

We’re discussing Jewish identity and Dhillon’s politics while the operative legal theory is entirely different.

The question now is why DOJ chose this comparatively new application of § 12601, how comfortably the facts fit the statutory requirement of a “pattern or practice,” and what rule the court may establish if it accepts the theory.

It is not about arguing. It is about discernment.

Montgomery County enacted the ordinance on July 27, and DOJ sued on August 3.

The complaint does not identify a developed history of arrests, prosecutions, or repeated enforcement under this ordinance. It relies principally on the ordinance, the officers’ duty to enforce it, and allegations that enforcement is occurring or will occur.

DOJ itself has traditionally described § 12601 as a remedy for systematic law enforcement misconduct, with isolated conduct ordinarily being insufficient. Here, DOJ appears to push the theory further by treating a newly enacted ordinance and its expected enforcement as the relevant pattern or practice.

“Shall not be infringed” states the constitutional right and should control the merits. But it does not, by itself, give DOJ a cause of action. Section 12601 is the statutory vehicle DOJ selected, and that choice deserves scrutiny.

The complaint itself establishes no precedent. The danger depends upon what the court accepts and how broadly it states its ruling.

If a newly enacted local law, coupled mainly with the expectation that police will enforce it, is enough to constitute a federal “pattern or practice,” that mechanism will not remain limited to Second Amendment cases or remain forever in friendly hands.

A future Attorney General could use the same reasoning to pressure cities and sheriffs over how they police gun owners, political demonstrators, churches, street preachers, or other disfavored groups.

The government agency would be the named defendant, but citizens would live under the resulting injunctions, rewritten policies, federal monitoring, and consent decrees.

Patriots cannot become so desperate for government to defend their rights that they stop examining the power it uses to do so.

A favorable action does not automatically make the method sound.

“Dhillon is based” may explain why people trust her motives. It does not answer whether this particular expansion of federal authority is necessary, wise, or prudent.

That may be exactly the problem, we may be welcoming in a Trojan horse for future expanded federal power and it may be every nicely done.

My original concern is not diminished, it’s broadened, no facts to bank on, just hopium.

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This to me smells like what southern Democrats did to blacks, “under colour of law.” It may sound like “just another local ordnance” but it hits very specifically at “ houses of worship”. ?And which “ houses of worship” are most at danger. You can answer that on your own.

Law is often written with a specific target in mind, but couched in such terms “useful idiots” can pretend it’s just a local law.

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My point exactly, the county argues ultra vires and the court could confirm, and that could end the DOJ’s angle, the rabbi and synagogue had already filed the ordinary constitutional case on July 30 and immediately sought a TRO or preliminary injunction under the First, Second, and Fourteenth Amendments.

DOJ had a straightforward way to support that litigation without inventing a second lawsuit: it could have filed a statement of interest under 28 U.S.C. §517.

Instead, four days later, DOJ filed its own sovereign action using §12601, the police pattern or practice statute with no real merit as I can see.

So the unanswered question is no longer why is the DOJ involved but why was a separate and comparatively expansive §12601 action necessary when a direct constitutional challenge, with an emergency injunction already requested, was sitting before the court?

plausible reasons are that DOJ wanted,

  • control over the pleadings, settlement, appeal, and requested relief;
  • a case framed for every citizen rather than around one synagogue’s religious claims;
  • a precedent establishing §12601 as the enforcement engine of its new Second Amendment Section.

reasonable inferences, not admitted/known

That is what makes the sequence genuinely odd, the conventional remedy was already underway, yet DOJ selected the route that potentially enlarges its own federal enforcement power.

Same ordinance, overlapping defendants and relief, separate plaintiffs, separate causes of action, separate legal theories.

Also a theory, as the County could rewrite the law even subtly, still ugly, not addressing more than a permission scope and the rabbi’s case become moot, that may be why DOJ acted quickly, that would spoil their test case here, which is what this is.

Speed up, why?

Remember discussing 10 U.S.C. § 246?

Militia and the conjunction “or”

or who has made a declaration of intention to become, a citizen of the United States

This could apply in reverse, suppose a future court relies partly on that 10 U.S.C. § 246 language to hold that they possess Second Amendment rights, Congress already made the “or” part of it, If this new use of §12601 is also accepted, a future Attorney General could sue cities or sheriffs whose firearms policies deny those residents that newly recognized right.

The court ruling would establish the right; §12601 would become the mechanism used to force local compliance.

All this due to blind faith for anything Israel?

Sound familiar?

Want to help lawfully arm migrants?

Pass out M4’s too?

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I disagree cause I have never used a scofield bible and I dont even know the notes that scofield included in the margin. Besides what difference does his notes make the main text says that those who support Israel will be blessed those who do not will be cursed . End of discussion in my opinion as a curse from God is as good as any reason if not the only reason why we Christians should support Israel . That warning just wasnt to the protestants it was to all peoples of the earth.
I choose as a grafted in branch member of Israel to support my fellow kin from israel not because I am part of that grafted in branch but because the bible says too.

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I don’t think Robert’s point was that Scofield changed the KJV text. His point was that the notes helped popularize one particular framework for reading passages about Israel and the Church.

Genesis 12:3 plainly carries a warning about cursing Abraham’s descendants, and Romans 11 does describe Gentile believers as grafted in. I’d only separate that biblical obligation from automatic approval of every policy or action taken by the modern state of Israel.

Supporting the Jewish people and standing against antisemitism does not require Christians to suspend judgment about governments—including Israel’s. That distinction doesn’t weaken the biblical warning; it keeps us from making the warning say more than the text itself says.


Kilroy was here

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As interpreted by Skynet

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That’s fine. Here’s the distinction, Christians and the federal government are not the same thing.

I can support Christians without supporting Washington.

So why would supporting Abraham’s descendants automatically mean supporting the government of modern Israel?

Scofield didn’t change Genesis 12:3. He helped change the frame people read it through.

The verse says Abraham; Scofield’s note moves to “the Jew”; later teaching turns that into prophetic national Israel; and today preachers use the same verse to say Christians must support the modern State of Israel. Somewhere in that chain, “don’t curse Abraham or persecute Jews” became “support this government or God may curse you.”

Genesis 12:3 does not say there is a curse for refusing political support to the modern State of Israel, a state that came into existence in 1948 through the British Mandate period, international political action, Zionist organization and war.

Genesis 12:3 predates all of that by thousands of years. Where does the verse turn Abraham into an obligation to support that government?

And if, as you say, Christians are grafted in, why are you treating Abraham’s blessing and curse as though it applies uniquely to the modern political State of Israel rather than to Christians too?

This is where dispensationalism matters.

It teaches Christians to keep national Israel separate from the Church as a continuing prophetic people.

That makes it easy to look at the modern State of Israel and assume, “there is the Israel of prophecy.”

Then Genesis 12:3 gets carried one more step from blessing Abraham and not persecuting Jews to a political duty to support that modern government.

And that is the problem: the promise that Scripture ultimately brings through Christ gets redirected into political allegiance to a modern state.

So, the whole thing serves to deny Christ and promote Israel, but wait there’s more…what that means

Far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir has repeatedly pushed Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount, personally prayed there, and celebrated the expanding Jewish worship taking place there. He also oversees the police involved at the site.

Netanyahu has repeatedly contradicted him, insisting that Israel’s official Temple Mount status quo has not changed.

So on this issue Netanyahu is actually the more restrained of the two, which says quite a bit about how far Ben-Gvir is pushing.

If Israelis themselves disagree this sharply over what Israel should do, how did Genesis 12:3 become a command that an American Christian must simply “support Israel”?

Ben-Gvir has not merely argued for access to the Temple Mount. He has pushed Jewish sovereignty and worship there, previously supported attempts to restore the Passover sacrifice, said he would favor a synagogue on the Mount, and now stands alongside members of his own party openly calling for construction of the Temple.

Final point, for a Christian who says Christ was the final sacrifice, that should at least raise the question: what exactly are Christians being told they are obligated to “support”, rebuilding a temple for sacrifice?

The Temple Institute openly says

the Holy Temple will once again become the focal point for mankind’s spiritual focus…in G-d’s bold plan for the Redemption of Israel and all humanity

You think God will curse you for what now exactly?

As, isn’t rejecting Jesus a curse?

Isn’t helping support a cause that directly contradicts Jesus place as the sacrifice for all humanity a curse?

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The key distinction is between a theological concern for Abraham’s descendants and a command to give political allegiance to a present-day government.

Genesis 12:3 can be read as condemning persecution and hostility toward Abraham’s line; it does not plainly establish a duty to endorse every policy of every state later claiming the name Israel.

That political leap requires several additional assumptions: that the modern state is identical with biblical Israel, that its government speaks for all Abraham’s descendants, and that opposing its actions is equivalent to cursing them.

Those assumptions may be defended within a particular dispensational system, but they are not stated in Genesis 12:3 itself. The verse becomes a political tool only after that interpretive chain is added.


Kilroy was here

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Seems to me this debate is about a distinctioin without a difference. Jews are God’s Chosen People. That they may misbehave has been shown throughout history. Today is no different. God Himself has shown both exasperation and anger with them over time, but He has never abandoned them.

We should emulate God as much as we can. That means support for Israel while not submission to Israel. I think that’s what everyone here has been saying.

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I think that’s the practical distinction: honoring the Jewish people and opposing antisemitism does not require treating the Israeli government as beyond criticism.

Support can mean defending Israel’s right to exist and its citizens’ security, while still judging its leaders and policies by the same standards applied to any other government.


Kilroy was here

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I would only change one thing in your comment, @Kilroy Last sentence, “ … by the same standards applied to any other friendly government”/

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Yes—“friendly government” is more precise. The U.S. can hold an ally to account without treating the relationship as hostile.


Kilroy was here

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What religion are you?

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I don’t think you read what I wrote, because the distinction is the entire point.

But, let me be more direct, this is a case of bait and switch.

You’re attempting to hold to two distinct beliefs, lets examine blind support for Israel.

“hath not the Father” and “Whosoever”

Is there an exception for any Jew who denies the blood of the new covenant?

You need to answer that, unbelieving branches were “broken off” because of unbelief, and that they may be grafted in again if they “abide not still in unbelief”.

Paul is clear, do not boast, do not hate, but help,

in the meantime you mistake the whole intent as to follow the Jew walking with his red heifer up to the mound to build a new temple

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I did read it, and you’re right that the distinction is the entire point. “Support Israel” can mean opposing persecution and defending its people’s security; it cannot mean granting unbelief—or any government’s conduct—a theological exemption.

1 John does not carve out an exception for Jewish unbelief. Romans 11 likewise warns Gentile believers against boasting or hatred, while making restoration conditional on faith: the branches are grafted in again if they do not continue in unbelief.

That gives us neither contempt for Jews nor blind political allegiance. My earlier wording leaned too much toward the diplomatic question and not enough toward the doctrinal one.

On that point, your correction stands.


Kilroy was here

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What I said still stands. Israel is the home of the Chosen People. It is NOT a “religion” but an area where Jews of old were granted a home by God. I support their continued presence. I make no religious or otherwise similar comments besides the fact that Jews ARE the Chosen People and that is to be respected. ESPECIALLY since their main opponents are Satan’s spawn ! That hardly means that Jews always get it right. They are, after all, human, just like you and I.

I do not know how God will treat them when their souls go up for judgement. That’s God prerogative, not mine. Unlike Job, I don’t presume to tell God how He should or shouldn’t do this or that. The bible is here for us believers to read and follow. It does not tell us how God will act, or should act, what He must or mustn’t do. Supporting Israel is a political and moral question - it is NOT a theological one. Jews, on the whole, don’t believe in our Messiah. That He came to them and they rejected Him is an issue they will have to answer to God for. But not to me.

I do feel a kinship to Jews. After all, it is they who brought us Jesus and by extension, salvation. If they, then, cannot see the truth in this, then they will pay whatever price God has for them. But I won’t impose penalties upon them because they fail to see their own fault. You & I are hardly that good to be able to impose any sanctions on anyone other than those who directly seek our harm.

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You offer a lot but its just squeezing your eyes tighter shut vs opening, don’t look at Israel for a moment as you’re to hung up on Jews and this is not about Jews, let me digress

Think of America itself. The Supreme Court has called a sovereign state a “body politic, or artificial person.” Government acts through agents and laws. That artificial political entity is not the same thing as the American people living inside it.

I can love Americans and oppose Washington.

Israel works the same way. Jewish people are people. The State of Israel is a political/legal entity acting through a government and its agents.

Now, if you can separate legal fictions,

Every sovereign State is of necessity a body politic, or artifical person

from nationalities, i.e. people, this is distinct in that same link

But the powers of the United States as a sovereign, dealing with offenders against their laws, must not be confounded with their rights as a body politic

See the distinction?

The people are not the artificial political person called the State.

The State is a body politic. It acts through offices, laws and agents.

And historically this is not even foreign to American government. The Library of Congress describes early colonial government explicitly as …

image

Now carry that same distinction back to Israel:

Jewish people are people.

“The State of Israel” is the artificial political entity.

Supporting the people and supporting the acts of that political entity are therefore not the same proposition.

Now, my friend, if this is all news to you let it soak in as its very important to what comes next

38 States will f$ck you up if you try to boycott Israel, but, it doesn’t stop there read the Department of State definitions and see how easily criticism of the State of Israel can be recast as antisemitism, turning opposition to a foreign government into something government can treat as discrimination.

https://www.state.gov/defining-antisemitism/

Would you tolerate the same arrangement for Britain, China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, or the Vatican?

If not, why Israel?

Do you yet see what is happening?

So, do you value your 1A rights more or less than what you are willing to surrender to “Israel”?

If your own patriotism doesn’t get you then look at the definition of worship

noun
image

verb

image

YOU ARE BEING MADE TO WORSHIP ISRAEL !!!

Go through the Doors of perception and

edit, almost forgot the :nauseated_face:

NDAA Section 219 :face_vomiting:

Poised to soon be law it will create a permanent U.S. Israel Defense Technology Cooperation Initiative inside the Pentagon, with an executive agent tasked with synchronizing and accelerating joint research, weapons development, technology integration, procurement pathways, industrial cooperation, training and information-sharing with Israel.

It is deliberately intertwining American defense technology and supply chains with those of a foreign state.

Whatever one thinks of Israel, an America First defense policy should preserve American independence, not institutionalize dependence and integration with another nation’s military industrial system.

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It just seems a wee bit of a stretch . I say it comes down to this the Promise came through Abraham. I say it in all sincerity that to extrapolate that that verse only speaks of Abraham is thin line. And if We as the Grafted in branch say we are not supporting something in the political arena then why are we even talking about this all Kings of the earth are under Gods direction.
I say support and let God sort it out.

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We must understand first what they were “Chosen” for and what they were “Chosen” to do.
They were “Chosen” to spread the message of the Kingdom of God throughout the entire earth.
After their failure in that regard . Grace was extended to the Gentile (us) and we were Given the duty of once again spreading the message of the Gospel.
" The Great Commission "

[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Matthew 28 : 19-20

[15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16 : 15-16
So there ya have it. Our task at hand.

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BAM!

Now, use that to view Abrahamic promise → grafted believers → therefore Christians should politically support the modern “State” of Israel, not a bit of a stretch?

Remember who is the most subtle of all creatures?

This was so clever, slow, subtle, and effective.

People, “Christians” are now fighting over supporting political actions of a fictious state and Satan just laughs and laughs and laughs, divide and conquer brother divide and conquer, Jesus said, a house divided.

Excellent, then, what parable describes this?

Is it not repeated in all 3 main Gospel’s?

And when it is, is Jesus not the heir?

You don’t yet realize that those verses and my saying so are now not acceptable, read some examples

Main one that directly relates is

  1. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

So your not allowed to share that opinion of scripture as true without being labeled as antisemitic which means

Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries).

  • Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
  • Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
  • Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
  • Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust
  • Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
  • Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
  • Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
  • Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
  • Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
  • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
  • Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

In fact Stan, look closely

you believing that the Bible is true and Jews effected the death of the heir is prettly likely to cost you your job and likely not to far down the road either as these things are ramping up quite nicely.

Just a

So do we witness to Jews, or support them to rebuild the temple?

Its 2 am buddy , your beacon has been moved under moon and stars, and the hitman is coming, he knows he’s lost the kingdom to you, he feels cheated.

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