Etymonline is already the better of the two for the word history, and your instinct is right that ger doesnât map cleanly onto a neat English equivalent. If you want a cleaner trail, the next useful step is a lexicon or concordance on the Hebrew itself, because the translation issue is doing a lot of work here.
The point youâre circling is that stranger in English is a rough fit, while sojourner gets closer to the âtemporary resident / dwelling amongâ side of it.
Kilroy was here
So, @musashiaharon , ?how does Israel then justify keeping all the muslims IN Israel. Seems to me your scripture requires you expel them.
My take on the intelligence bill and espionage concern is basically like this.
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you.[1]
So may America be blessed.
Our military and representatives have consistently valued the intelligence and strategic aid which Israel provides the US.
âGeneral John Keegan, a former chief of US Air Force Intelligence determined that Israelâs contribution to US intelligence was âequal to five CIAs.â Senator Daniel Inouye, Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee and former Chairman of the Intelligence Committee said âThe intelligence received from Israel exceeds the intelligence received from all NATO countries combined.â
~ Foreign Policy Association: Israeli Intelligence
For just one example, Israel is currently providing flight telemetry and upgrade designs from the F35-I, which America can use to train machine learning models to make the plane smarter. Israel is helping us improve our own fighter jets, using data from some of the best pilots in the world.
Likewise, Israel has been providing the US with battle-tested counter-missile and counter-drone technology, which Israel developed to defend itself against tens of thousands of missiles and attack drones from Iran and its proxies over the years. As a bonus, America sells Israel interceptor missiles for that system, so this benefits America economically as well as defensively.
The most recent instance of military cooperation is when Israel put skin in the game together with us in the war to disarm Iran, where no other NATO nation did. Israel even contributed intel and tactical support to the rescue of the US airmen downed over enemy soil.
Itâs not the first time Israel has risked their own to fight in our interests, either. Even under the failed JCPOA and before, Israel repeatedly played a critical role in sabotaging and destroying Iranian nuclear facilities. If it wasnât for Israel keeping watch and taking action, weâd be facing a nuclear Iran already. Never forget that they chant âDeath to America! Death to Israel!â at their official functions, and what that would have meant with nukes.
In many cases, Israel has provided America with safe harbor for US troops. One US General Alexander Haig called Israel
âthe largest US aircraft carrier, which does not require even one US soldier, cannot be sunk, is the most cost-effective and battle-tested, located in a region which is critical to vital US interests. If there would not be an Israel, the US would have to deploy real aircraft carriers, along with tens of thousands of US soldiers, which would cost tens of billions of dollars annually, dragging the US unnecessarily into local, regional and global conflicts. All of which is spared by the Jewish State.â
~âYNet News: Americaâs Unique Ally.â
The intelligence bill is about taking better advantage of Israeli intelligence technologies to defend America. We havenât been attacked by drones like Israel has, nor do we have the cultural familiarity to infiltrate hostile Arab governments which Israel has. So, this is understandably a unique value proposition to Americaâs War Department.
America certainly has a legitimate interest in stopping espionage. That said, the State Department is careful to note that espionage concerns are separate from whether a state is a friend or foe.
For Israelâs part, they would not use the intelligence gained for betrayal. It would be suicide for them, and that has never been their purpose in the past. Even after the Pollard incident, the official damage assessment noted that Israel ânever expressed interest in US military activities, plans, capabilities, or equipment.â What did Israel want to learn about?
âSyrian drones and central communications, Egyptian missile programs, and Soviet air defenses.[2] The Israelis specifically asked for a signals intelligence manual that they needed to listen in on Soviet advisers in Syria.â[3]
This history is why I think Israel is rated such a high espionage concern for the US, not that Israel would attack, Heaven forbid, the US. Israel is too closely-aligned with us. Their military fights alongside ours. In the UN, they vote with us 90% of the time, more so than any other nation.
The timing of when the recent espionage concern was publicized, while this intelligence bill is being debated, suggests that people in the intelligence community donât want integration with Israeli systems. Perhaps, since most of the deep state is Democrat, this says more about leftist interests than American interests.
Progressives, after all, have been supporting the likes of Commie-Mamdani, and Totenkopf-Tattoo Graham Platner, and spray-painting âFree Palestineâ and red triangles over our monuments. After they assassinated TPUSAâs Charlie Kirk, his memorials were desecrated with anti-Israel messages. They seem to love Islamo-fascist regimes in general, which is a consistently flag-burning, anti-American position. (As well as a self-defeating brain-dead one, given that LGBTQ+ people are regularly beheaded there. I guess they hate America more than they love LGBTQ+ people.)
I think the tighter integration with Israel helps America. It weakens Iran (which has been funding and bullying proxies to harm the US), Yemen (home of the Houthis and their missiles), Qatar (which sheltered Hamas leaders after 10/7 and whose state media organ is Al Jazeera), China (drone supplier to the Arabs), and Russia (gifter of MiG fighters, tanks, anti-aircraft batteries, etc.). Israel has more access to and combat experience against military hardware from many of those nations, and has an established pattern of sharing that unique information with the United States.
Investing in Israel continues to yield worthwhile returns, and not just in intelligence, but also in the American workforce, and protecting the flow of global oil.
Ishmael was excluded from the principal of the blessing later:
Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said to G.d, âIf only Ishmael will live before You!â 19 And G.d said, âIndeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. 20 And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year.ââŠď¸
We have continued to encounter Russian anti-aircraft batteries in Iran now. The Israelis are reporting that theyâve used the F-35I to neutralize S-300 and S-400 batteries in Iran. While the Iranians have been developing their own systems, these are in an immature state and in any case would be based heavily off of Russian designs. Islamic Republic of Iran Air Defense Force - Wikipedia âŠď¸
Iâm wondering, why didnât America provide that to Israel to begin with? The Cold War was ongoing and it would hurt Russian interests, so why not? âŠď¸
There are several halachic justifications for not expelling âMuslimsâ from Israel.
One is that Muslims are not necessarily terrorists or terrorist supporters. These are not violating the Noahide prohibition on bloodshed. I regularly see Israeli Muslims posting about the civil liberties they have in Israel. I would hate to see them go.
Another thing is that Islam describes G.d in a monotheistic way compatible with the Noahide laws, and they are not idolaters.
Another complication is that the Israeli government is not structured according to Torah law (it is instead modeled after the British Parliament). Without that, the Jews lack the conditions to administer immigration law and other matters according to Torah.
The Rebbe wrote about non-Jews in general, that those who are peaceful and follow the Noahide laws are geirim toshvim, and the Torah permits them to live in the Holy Land. At the same time, he supported Jews demonstrating their readiness to defend themselves with force, since this was good for the Palestinians, too: They would see that the Jews are ready, and from that realization, they would ultimately choose not to come to harm.
The halachic problem is with the violent ones who believe that they must eradicate the Jews, like Hamas and Hizballah. Even without a Torah government, the commandment to save a life is still fully in force:
Leviticus 19:16 You shall not stand by [the shedding of] your fellowâs blood. I am the L.rd.
It applies even if no less than the pursuerâs life is required (Sanhedrin 73a-b):
Deuteronomy 22:26 Whereas to the girl, you shall do nothing the girl did not commit a sin deserving of death, for just as a man rises up against his fellow and murders him, so is this case.
27 Because he found her in the field. The betrothed girl had cried out, but there was no one to save her.
If the innocent can be saved without killing the pursuer, that is best.
I couldnât disagree more, especially when you say
America is a liberty order; Zionism is a land state order, Americaâs spirit says the state must not become god over man. Zionismâs political spirit says the state and land are necessary vessels of national destiny.They are not the same spirit.
I donât at all accept that, and many will not forget the past either
Americaâs early order restrained tyranny, honored conscience, protected worship, and acknowledged rights as gifts from God rather than permissions from the state.
But that blessing is conditional in the biblical pattern, Israel has been blessed by its US relation, which is now sinking extremely quick. When a nation forgets the source of its blessing, the blessing becomes corrupted, the current relation with Israel is corrupting America and it is showing.
Israel born in 1948 is not the biblical Israel and is not good for America which is why youâre watching the flameâs getting higher in real time, butâŚit is what it is, God allows what He allows for His reasons
For the record , do not ever confuse these two
You mean war and worldwide famine?
Thatâs all weâre getting supporting Israel.
Gallop is more generous, Israel is still above N Korea, (for now)
A decade ago, Israel was viewed much more favorably by Americans.
Gallupâs favorable rating for Israel:
2014: 72% favorable
2015: 70%
2016: 71%
2017: 71%
2018: 74%
2019: 69%
2020: 74%
2021: 75%
2022: 71%
2023: 68%
2024: 58%
2025: 54%
2026: 46%
So the change is sharp:
2016: 71% favorable
2026: 46% favorable
That is a 25-point drop in ten years.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, but I donât share the US Military troops broadly support Israel, why would they?
Not isolated either, Phalcon/Harpy & most clearly in the Pollard case , and Trumps pardon speaks poorly of where his loyalties lie, we of course are paying that price now, will it turn around, maybe, and maybe strongly for 3.5 years too, otherwise, it may not
I feel Israel does far more to hurt than to help the US, hopefully you do some more study on these things
I disagree @Robert . Israel has been a true ally - for pretty much all its existence. I can speak to that with 28-1/2 yrs of service, including access to many secret items.
America is a unique nation; there is no other nation like us on the face of the earth. We are conceived and promogulated in a distinctly different manner that any other nation. We may be the only nation created in distinctly liberal terms. Comparing us to any other nation is simply wrong, if for no other reason than that we are unique.
Israel was created mostly by British input - for their own reasons. Some of it was guilt over what all happened in WWII, a fact the muslims have consistently attempted to deny. Rewriting hx is simply inappropriate. We have our own warts, most of which we have managed to overcome despite progressives like the two Roosevelts, Madison Grant, Woodrow Wilson, LBJ, and Obama, Weâre still not perfect, but weâre a darn sight better than most other nations.
Israel has its own demons to deal with. Jews, in my experience, as loud, messy, opinionated people. It is no wonder that Israeli politics are as they are. Still, denying their importance and usefulness to us is simply wrrong, both morally and historically. Israel has taken many of our own designs (which they have dutifully purchased from us) and improved them significantly. They have also created any number of technologies on their own, which they have shared with us - not the least of which has been initelligence. It is pretty much a given within the military circles that Mossad is simply one of the premier intelligence services in the world.
If you do not like all their efforts, you must first put yourself in their shoes. WE are involved in a global struggle, but itâs for dominance not existence. THAT is a very big distinction. Israel struggles every day to continue to just EXIST. That deserves some real consideration.
Espionage is something every nation does. WE do the same. ?Do you not recollect some of the revelations of us âspyingâ on our own âalliesâ - like UK & Germany. It is simply what every nation does to whatever degree they can and must. WE spy on ISRAEL - ?why would you not expect them to spy on us. OBAMA pretty openly tried to interfer in Israeli elections; to date I have not seen credible evidence of formal Israeli interference in OUR elections. Yes, the Jews of America have had a singular effect - on politics, on elections, on many things. But theyâre Americans so they have every right to speak their mind and use their influence, even though I feel they have been wrong about many of their âcausesâ. Jews were instrumental in the rise of communism, an ideology that I have no time or patience with. Interestingly, in most cases they have paid the price for their mistakes - with ostracization, side-lining, and even death. But FAFO, and even Jews would most likely agree with that sentiment.
As for the Gallup poll, the drop you mention has NOT BEEN over 10 years - itâs been essentially over 3, maybe 4 years. ?And why do you think that happened. Because of âPalestinianâ intervention. Arabs may not fight well, but they are excellent at subversive activity. To my way of thinking, you are the victim of a psy-op - by islam.
Looking for us in any of our allies is a foolâs errand IMO.
Its obvious to me why, and Iâm not naive to grasp why not so obvious to others.
You speak a lot of Jews in that reply as if they are part of the discussion on Israelâs politics, it will help you a great deal to recognize some scriptural references to antichrist, what it means, how long itâs been in existence and its role in the end times and then do the same for Jews as Jews are not simply Israel nor many even Jews
When you strip this down its very old and very simple, there is ying and yang, light and dark, good and evil and none of that can be summed up with Jews.
If it could then I may not be able to point to Luther, a leader in the protestant movement, break it down, protesting the Church is protesting His Church, is to deny His authority which is to deny His name and the scriptural warningâs are dire, and if you donât know of Lutherâs hatred of Jews, take a look back
What Luther called for:
Luther lead the march form the Church, guess who you follow in the protestant movement?
Christian History Institute summarizes the same passage: Luther recommended setting fire to synagogues or schools, razing Jewish houses, confiscating Jewish writings, and forbidding rabbis to teach âon pain of loss of life and limb.â
Columbia Universityâs Luther exhibition also summarizes his 1543 position: he called for destruction of Jewish homes and synagogues, forced labor, prohibition of Jewish teaching and practice, and wrote that Christians were âat fault in not slaying them.â
So to get further down the rabbit trail you need to truly face some difficult historical facts in schismâs in the Church, weâre in a third one right now, and Israel is front an center, youâre either allying with it and facing being deprived of life or youâre standing firm against it.
There is no new thing under the sun
fear of the Jews surely does not mean simply Jews as they were Jewish themselves
MAGA / America First split over Israel and Iran is simply a way of saying once again Israel has further eroded via influence, whatever Trumps true north star is it can be boiled down to support for Israel, and if you donât go along to get along:
break this down simply, are you for War?
âŚassembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Peace be unto you, not follow Israel to war without provocation, but donât worry Iâm sure that is coming, and I bet you donât need a history on false flags, though some may never have been truly made known for what they were, think
That is plausible as political suspicion, because the plot was extremely useful to the Crown after it was exposed, a anonymous warning letter was sent to Lord Monteagle telling him to stay away from Parliament. Monteagle gave it to the authorities, which led to the search and Fawkesâs arrest.
Gets more familiar when you look at more recent events where certain people managed to not be present at 9/11, Larry Silverstein leased the World Trade Center shortly before 9/11, carried major terrorism inclusive insurance coverage, was absent that morning because of a medical appointment, and later received roughly $4.55 billion after litigation with insurers. That is the documented claim.
Now, âifâ this is larger than you know or care to admit, and you fail to look into it, then, walk into it, what can be said?
Youâre blending two different things there: Scripture language and church history. Lutherâs anti-Jewish writings are real and ugly, but that does not make âJewsâ a clean stand-in for Israel, the church, or end-times language.
Thatâs where the argument usually starts sliding around on itself. If you want the cleanest read, keep the categories separate: Jews as a people, Israel as a nation, and whatever theological system youâre using for Revelation.
If youâre trying to pin down which part of the chain you think actually broke, thatâs the point worth nailing down.
Kilroy was here
Why assume its broke at all?
Thank you, @Kilroy , for mentioning the obvious issue here.
One can speak of âJewsâ just as one can speak of âAmericanâ, or âBritsâ, or what have you. Generalizations are useful in certain contexts. None of these groups are monolithic, albeit, there are tendencies for common traits. Thatâs merely a function of culture. Iâm a Serb. I hardly agree with a lot of what has gone on among the Serbs, but I tend to share some of their common characteristics. I am tough. I am pugnacious. I am strong-willed. I am loyal - especially to those I consider friends. I am NOT very Serb-like in many ways when compared to âmodernâ Serbs. Doesnât change the value of talking in some circumstances about âSerbsâ. OR âAmericansâ, though I may have at least as many if not more common points with the perceived American.
Your comments about Luther being anti-septic are a common European concept, found in significant numbers of almost every European nation - at least the continental ones. I attribute that to the RCC âSaintâ, Augustine. HE was a Roman lawyer by profession. The concept of proportional guilt according to the status of the victim, is a purely Roman idea. Judaism does NOT hold the son guilty of the fatherâs sins; Romans do according to the status of the victim. So, do some harm to a fellow serf and you pay some price. Do so against a Lord, and you AND some part of your family pay the price. Kill an emporer and you and your whole line face eradication.
Due to Charlemagneâs effect, pretty much ALL of continental Europe was RCC. Therefore Augusttineâs concept of sin and punishment prevailed. So Jew hatred was common - both as punishment for the killing of Jesus AND because pretty much ALL the continental European countries sooner or later came to a (false) conclusion they were somehow the âNEW Chosen People of Godâ. USUALLY at that point the pogroms began. Look up that history and you will find it eerily consistent. So Luther being antisemetic is hardly unusual or out-of-keeping with the rest of the European continent.
?Who are these famous âPalestiniansâ. They are nothing but a political construct in Hamasâ continuing war with israel. The Hamas leaders have actually so said - publicly. âFrom the River to the Seaâ has long been a Jewish saying. It has been expropriated by the arabs, having little internal creativity (in that theyâre like the Chinese - but lots stupider). So ALL your above examples, where people speak in support of âPalestiniansâ or their proxies, are simply BS positions.
I have to conclude you are against our battle with Persia. I have to disagree with you there, too. Persia has long been asking for retribution - and we have been way too cowardly to give them their due. When an opponent constantly and unfailingly chants âDeath to Americaââ and âAmerica is the Great Satan!â while continuously spending real money to foster proxie wars against us and our soldiers, sooner or later you should actually take them at their proclaimed word. They HATE you. OK. Work with that. So far about all weâve done is be conciliatory towards them. Itâs merely got us more of the same. Their IEDâs have killed or maimed thousands of our troops. There are proven to be made by Persia. Weâve done nothing about that - EXCE[T Trump, who killed Sulayman in his first term. Persia learned nothing about Trump from that. They continued to break the terms of their agreement (the koran gives a muslim specific exemption to lie to a non-muslim to further himself).
I spent 10 years during the 6-months of Dessert Storm in Minot, ND, where my Guard unit was mobilized to backfill the AF hospital while their people were sent to Egypt to care for our planes and people (the ONLY service that allowed units to serve intact in Dessert Storm were USMC reserve units; ALL the other services put âregularsâ in charge of Reserve (militia) units). I thought HW left the question unanswered. He let Saddam off way too easy. He should have absolutely destroyed the iraqi regime THEN and leave the iraqis to figure out their own fates and politics.
So far I donât see Trump has misstepped one bit. Persia had to be dealt with. Better early in his term than later. Lance the boil. He has pretty much destroyed Persiaâs attempt to create a nuclear device. He has pretty much decimated Persiaâs militant regimes bite, leaving them mostly toothless. And ths without setting ONE BOOT ON THE GROUND! Along the way he has smashed the UK control fo shipping (via Lloydâs of London), shown NATO to be mostly a cardboard alliance that exists ONLY because WE continue to fund it, has shown the EU to be more or less irrelevant economically, put China in its proper second place, and offered Vladimir a normal, prosperous way out to the Ukrainian quagmire he has gotten hisself into. All while internally heâs pretty much wiped out the Democrat Party, which for a long time has been nothing but the home of far left radicals. They purged the last of the true liberals from the party long ago.
When the Berlin Wall fell, my Guard unit was celebrating. As their then Head of Flight Medicine, I told them, âNot so fast. We may have beaten ONE enemy, but thereâs lots more out there. I expect our next one will be islamâ. I was, sad to say, correct.
Can you sum up the 50 minute video please?
That guy is so boreing his dog is even sleeping 
Like rejecting knowledge?
I canât speak to that, but, does God?
Iâm thinking we can find a few verses to that affect if we look, if we needed to, maybe even where all the children for centuries were punished.
I sure loved Trump, when the Civil War movie came out it was the media in focus amidst a civil war while hunting a Trump figure, no fâing way would I ever see that as realistic, Trump way to far loved by the people, Iâd of bet against it until he bombed Iran.
Then I seen a different picture.
Not only was there no cause, we lost all high moral ground, but it is as you say âPersiaâ, one of the two powers Daniel prophesied about
a horn is a power, if you have two horns
you might have a nation with two powers, like a republic and a democracy.
Trump was surely embolden by the quick win in Venezuela, the deep practical issue appears to have been oil, control, and regime change, seems despite overwhelming opinions
https://www.axios.com/2026/02/23/iran-strike-trump-gen-dan-caine-vance-rubio
saying it could never happen in Iran but he went for it anyhow, weâre over 100 days, any idea how well its going?
But do we not only need to look at many other failures where we go in and leave only having spent money, almost as if we have a war economy?
Iran is a great war if you appreciate a war economy or were able to position yourself well by hedging your bets in advance and of course donât mind spending money you obtained from death.
Sticks and stones, a grade school lesson, Netanyahuâs pattern of âimminentâ warnings of Iran having a nuke runs for more than 30 years, as early as 1992 can be found, so if its sticks and stones for 30 years why is now acceptable, maybe simply another regime change attempt, an oil grab attempt?
I thank you for your service, thank you, and I grasp the need for supremacy, and that you canât always assume the moral ground is the winning strategy on its face, but historically where have we done better, with it, or without it?
It affects legitimacy, domestic unity, alliances, troop morale, occupation outcomes, and the postwar settlement.
At this moment with MAGA divided and our having burned through a major share our high end missile defense interceptors defending Israel and fighting Iran: roughly 150 to 200 plus THAAD interceptors, 80 to 100 plus SM-3/SM-6 naval interceptors, and large Patriot use in the broader Iran conflict and our nations oil reserves threatened how do you think wed fare right now if attacked?
So we put ourselves in grave political and military jeopardy for stick and stones?
No, I donât support the war as Iâm aware of all the depleted strategic stockpiles, the current and more significant upcoming price hikes and shortages and the fact I learned sticks and stones in grade school.
Were you?
Are you sure?
As I only see one enemy and he has won over many minds from all nations, the only strong hold he can not prevail against, but he loves to attack, His Church.
In the end does God favor the just or the unjust?
Does He punish the just or unjust?
Has He ever used
What is this verse about?
God can use an unjust or pagan ruler as His instrument, then, so perhaps, again too?
Might it be about
?
Who might be the them?
I have a lot of questions, but one big one, if God protects Israel then why does Israel need to do anything at all concerning Iran?
If its all about prophecy does it need to be forced to occur?
Why did we not see Iran attack Israel in the same big way?
Timing would be great as Israel is to busy with what, six other conflicts right now?
Or, is it more IDK, or maybe less, they spend a lot of time being straight friendly there, might not have the time to fight after all
What do you think Israel is asking for?
Historically speaking, unjust wars and lifestyles, get many blessings?
Whoâs winning this arguement?
All weâre doing is pointing shit out to you, we in this together (Iâm saying)
A better question is, whoâs losing?
An âunknownâ hacker controls ICP and can target anything they choose on it
Arming up? Nowhere near well enough, nowhere at all
Thereâs a lot of news these days on how people called boomers only get their news from legacy news platforms, at best Faux news, and everything you just wrote can be challenged to what I would hope would be eye opening.
A single point
The old regime before decapitation of Khamenei was nuclear weapons were haram, religiously forbidden, and that Iran did not seek them, and with all the oil and natural resources itâs not an unbelievable stance, now since cornered with the major escalation they likely do have them, but that is not a new report, and back to stick and stones
So what is true vs what is not is that whether or not Iran has them it is now much more justifiable they do have one due simply to the unprovoked attack which is our 2A position, right to keep and bear, you simply can not argue it, our best deterrent before the attack was Iran with 190 other states is party to the
https://treaties.unoda.org/t/npt
However Israel is notâŚ
repeat
So, for example, you fear muslims and sign a treaty to not bear arms, muslims donât, muslims then attack you unprovoked, and youâre the bad guy.
That is your logic here.
Coincidently itâs also reality in the UK, so twist your head around all this, think deep and hard on what the unprovoked attack means now, you say also
but donât realize those commercial ships wont sail uninsured and our own navy fears entering those straights with any significant size or duration as itâs simply not under our control, or that of the UK, if it were weâd have tankers in their normal routes and the war would have lasted the four days Trump believed.
As to news, itâs one thing to follow or comprehend, its another to obtain or verify, if I track oil tankers and do so with info from the alex jones network vs msm (legacy/faux) the stories do not line up as to predictive points, I check AI, ask about oil futures, comes back with $75 which is contrary to $250 Iâve heard, I press further and AI will search and report on its own up to $200, watching it select the target up to $200 I see a bias and press into the news sources, nothing AJN of course, so I direct it into AJN (Alex Jones Network) and it predefines its search with leads vs confirmation then I point this out and get it to conclude
Now, will the US prevail?
Most likely absolutely, but at what cost?
Iran called as you pointed out
but more so the big and little satans, Israel and the US, Israel as I showed losing favor fast around the world and us to along with them reinforces big/little satan status, but guess what?
Guess how the beast rules the world?
Its all
its all âŚdeceiveth the whole world
arming up?
not well enough, watch the two first videos in full if you have the time, very revealing, the others are simply amuseing
The hard truth is the headline claim is still too squishy to cash out cleanly. From what you quoted, the strongest supported position is not âIran definitely has a bomb,â but âthe public story is all over the map, and the certainty on either side is overstated.
â The key split is between capability, intent, and actual possession. A state can be close, can have the know-how, can be hiding work, and still not have a deployable weapon; those are different lanes, and people keep blurring them.
That AGSI piece is also not the same kind of proof as primary-source confirmation. It may be useful as a lead, but it doesnât settle the question by itself, especially on a claim as loaded as a nuclear breakout.
The âharamâ argument cuts both ways. Religious prohibition may explain prior policy posture, but it does not prove current restraint once a regime feels cornered, and it also doesnât prove a bomb exists now.
So the clean answer is: the claim that Iran was obviously and permanently without a weapons path is too confident, and the claim that it now definitely has a bomb is also too confident. Whatâs more defensible is that the margin for certainty got worse, not that the matter is settled.
Kilroy was here
In the case of Iran, I actually would argue it. The 2A does not protect the right of violent felons to bear arms. Iran, which regularly issues terroristic death threats and carries them out, is like a violent felon, unlike most countries. Even if other countries have a â2Aâ right to bear nuclear arms, Iran does not.
I positively do not grasp your logic, itâs no different than an anti gunner, an armed society is a polite society, I honestly donât believe Iran had nukes as if they did then Israel risked far too much for far to little, Iranâs mistake may actually be the same as an antigun sign in front of your home, it sends the message to bad actors you are a soft target.
Given Israelâs spy capability I feel it much more likely it new full well there would be no nuclear retaliation, so the argument of self defense simply does not exist, but now that it has happened do those who hate Jews and Israel not have a better argument to attack it in force to protect the rest of the world?
Is that perhaps not the intent?
Do you believe the Messiah will come if you anger the whole world and it attacks Israel?
So any action to that end is justified?
As that is final, you truly ready for final?
Fair challenge. I canât verify the âMessiah will come if you anger the whole worldâ angle, and Iâd back off the nuclear/self-defense framing too far as a clean argument.
Israelâs case is usually simpler than that: a state hit with an attack answers under self-defense, and a regime thatâs been openly hostile for years doesnât get the benefit of the doubt the way a normal neighbor would. That still doesnât turn every strike into âtherefore anything goes.
â The stronger line is that once the shooting starts, everyone starts claiming necessity. That doesnât make the claim true.
Kilroy was here
@Robert , your arguments about self defense in Persiaâs case ring hollow to me. Letâs review. Self defense is use of deadly force to stop a threat of death OR great bodily harm. ?Do you not consider the October massacre by Hamas a âgreat bodily harmâ. I would. Hamas would not exist were it not for Persiaâs financing. It may be a proxy fight, which Persia uses to attempt to isolate itself from reprisal but it is still at fault.
Take a hypothetical case. A genius creates a fabulous plan to rob a bank of $40 million. He sells the plan to a gang for 10% of the profits. The gang carries out the robbery, but in the process kills one innocent civilian and one bank guard. The gang is caught. They rat out the genius. ?Is the genius also criminally responsible for the deaths during the robbery. The answer would be Yes.
Another example. You and your wife are walking along a sketchy street to get to your parked car. You are surrounded by a gang of 7 thugs, ONE of which is armed with a knife. They demand your money and your wife. ?Are you justified to shoot them all (assuming you can do so before they run). EVEN in OUR RESTRICTIVE society, you have that right. None of them actually slashed at you, nor openly SAID they would slash you. Yet disparity of force allows you to shoot.
In Memphis there was only one proscribed instructor for CCL license teaching. He once made the claim that his classes of CCL carriers had over the years been involved in 55 shootings. 4 died. All 4 did not have their weapon on them,
So self defense does not require someone actually attempts to kill you. The elements of self defense require the opponent makes a credible threat (Persia agreed to allow observers to oversee their enrichment process, then refused them access. One of their government officials has recently publically stated the goal was ALWAYS to make a bomb), has the ability to carry it out, is able to be carry out the threat, and your response is proportional. ALL those items are true in the case of Persia.
