Sup Ct to Determine Constitutionality of “Assault Weapons” Ban

Public Shooting Range
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That got me curious about how Puerto Ricans get citizenship, so I read the Foraker Act of 1900 and the Jones-Shafroth Act of 1917, and the mentions of citizens in the current PR Constitution.

It appears that their rules for citizenship refer back to the Foraker Act. Anybody who was previously a subject of Spain, and did not make an oath to retain their Spanish allegiance, became a US citizen.

The Jones-Shafroth Act additionally provided that anybody not owing allegiance to any other nation and are permanently domiciled in PR would be US citizens. It also specified that anybody born to an alien parent and was permanently residing in PR would have a window of opportunity to gain US citizenship when the Act took force (6 months after the Act for adults; for minors, 1 year after reaching majority).

These and their children were granted birthright US citizenship.

It seems to me that most current PRs would have nothing to fear if children of illegal migrants or visa holders were ruled to be non-citizens. As long as their parents were here lawfully and permanently, the children would continue to have US citizenship.

The US Congress would be Contitutionally barred from writing an ex-post-facto (i.e. retroactive) law stripping citizenship from those already explicitly granted citizenship. That’s covered under the Due Process clause (another part of 14A) and Constitution Art. I sec. 9 regarding ex post facto laws.

The conservative push is only to exclude children of those unlawfully here and children of those in the country on a temporary visitor basis. From my reading, neither of those situations were ever included explicitly in the Foraker Act, the Jones-Shaffroth Act, or the current PR Constitution.

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Awesome how that works, no?

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Yeah — Puerto Rico citizenship is a weird little history stack. Congress handed it out by statute, not from birthright in the same way the 14th Amendment gets argued on the states.

Kilroy was here

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Thanks, Musashiaharon. You always give very thoughtful and articulate responses. Puerto Rico is its own unique US Territory. I’m guessing it’s the same as Guam, the US Virgin Islands, but still unlike the old New Mexico and Oklahoma territories before they became states as explained in the “insular cases.” Here’s one such “insular case” opinion from way back in 1901:

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/182/244/?__cf_chl_f_tk=5OfCeZfedEKCNq0G4aFzSykmwr_rhBt6tJfQabl0riU-1783386396-1.0.1.1-TNZnXlnWcm.hUYcmuPp7jrTuOjTTOZRExFbCOnXLRlk

Here’s an excerpt from Justice Brown in the opinion above:

"Upon the other hand, the Fourteenth Amendment, upon the subject of citizenship, declares only that ‘all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.’

"Here there is a limitation to persons born or naturalized in the United States which is not extended to persons born in any place “subject to their jurisdiction.”

The following case notes that the legal concept of the insular cases has not been overturned:

Despite the above, here’s another interesting Supreme Court case from way back in 1904, a few years after the US acquired PR and before the 1917 law granting citizenship by Congress:

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/192/1/

Basically, the court said that PR’s are not foreign aliens, but it also declined to say they are US citizens.

So taking all the above, what would happen if Congress revokes US citizenship to PR’s born in PR? And what would happen to those born in a US state from PR’s whose citizenship was revoked? And would revocation be considered retroactive? If so, what about PR’s who were drafted, like my Uncle Juan who fought in Guadalcanal and Okinawa? My Uncle Manolo and Step-Grandpa Guilo who fought in the frozen Chosin in Korea, my Uncle Billy who fought during the siege at Khe Sanh and my Dad who was drafted in '69 and treated injured and sick troops for 3 years at Tripler Army Base? That would be messed up, and some would argue unfair and possibly a violation of due process, but others could argue tough luck and so sad too bad. While the insular cases don’t help, it’s all admittedly speculative and hypothetical and unlikely to happen. But I’m sure the same has been said of other things that eventually and inexplicably came to pass.

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Is there any other case of Congress revoking citizenship en masse? I can’t think of one. If they did so, in my opinion, that would be unconstitutional, as in my previous post.

Citizenship is mostly a one-way ratchet. I don’t think citizenship was revoked even in the Civil War - the Union legally considered the Confederacy to be an illegitimate entity, not a separate nation.

In contrast, there are other instances where Congress just… gave citizenship. For example, Indians who were originally not citizens despite being born in the US were given statutory citizenship in the 1924 Indian Citizenship Act. So being born on US land by itself was apparently not understood to grant citizenship. Like in the case of PR, Indians also needed an explicit statute granting them citizenship.

That said, looking at the long history of Jewish persecution throughout the world, and even the American treatment of, e.g., Japanese-Americans during WWII, and the confiscation of privately-owned gold under FDR, it shows that governments are fickle and should not be trusted. The law is one thing; what government actually does is frequently something else. And laws are not necessarily moral either.

So I’ll consider the idea.

If Congress did retroactively revoke citizenship, I think the courts (especially in blue states, though with a lot of emotional language in the rulings, a la the recent DEI SCOTUS appointees; and likely a bunch in red states too, but with actual rigorous, logic) would smack the law down, all the way from district courts through the circuit courts to SCOTUS, even without the recent SCOTUS ruling.

Whether the executive branch would be willing to follow through on the hypothetical law would depend on how supported they felt and how necessary they felt it would be to carry it out. Feds being feds, they’d play it fast and loose, which is scary to think about.

That said, I don’t think Puerto Ricans are anywhere close to public enemy no. 1. The voting masses and talking heads can only focus on so many enemies at once, and I think the list (based on crimes, “crimes,” and deportation stories) is topped by Trump, MAGA, ICE, Antifa, judges, police, “Nazis” “fascists,” “fundamentalist” Christians, child predators, anti-abortionists, big tech, rapists, cartels, LGBTQ indoctrinators and missionaries, Israelis, and Jews. On the reserve list are big oil/energy, big pharma, anti-zionists, Muslims, Haitians, Indians, Chinese, and Russians. Puerto Ricans seem pretty far down the list to me.

Unless Americans begin hating Puerto Ricans more than Israelis and Jews, those will be the practical canary. If we are arrested or deported based primarily on our heritage, you will have your warning.

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Where have you been?

You never heard Fred afraid of Jews moving in the neighborhood…but…Puerto Ricans… :person_gesturing_no:

Besides, people are afraid to upset Jews for fear of Israel

:face_with_hand_over_mouth:

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That line is doing two different jobs at once: race bait on Puerto Ricans, and then the old “don’t cross the Jewish lobby / Israel” gripe. I’d keep it tighter and less cluttered if you want it to land.

Something like: “Unless Americans start hating Puerto Ricans more than they fear upsetting Jews, that theory doesn’t go anywhere. ”

Kilroy was here

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You guys are missing one significant thing. Law cannot be retroactive, at least in America. So you cannot pass a law banning birthright citizenship to illegals and exclude those who already got it.

OTOH, citizenship is something that can be LOST. Contrary to @musashiaharon comment, the Southerners did, indeed, “lose” their citizenship. What followed after the Civil War was a mass mess, wherein Congress attempted to institute certain rules, the South resisted, and compromises were made. BUT ALL the revolting states required to be readmitted to the Union. They had born arms against it, so their inclusion would, of necessity, be an issue. (And Lincoln was dead.)

As to what can be done about this, several parallel lines of attack have presented themselves. Congress has already drafted a bill to prevent birthright “tourism”, which would include all illegals. It still needs to be passed, but work has begun.

Second, the DOJ has appealed the SCOTUS ruling, claiming new evidence (birthright tourism advertisements among hopefully other arguments). Appeals to SCOTUS rulings do not occu very often but they DO happen, and once in a while they even end up with a reversal of the original ruling. So there’s that.

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You bring up some solid points about the nature of citizenship and the historical context surrounding it.

The idea that law cannot be retroactive is a crucial aspect of how legal systems function in the U.S. Your mention of the potential for Congress to draft bills addressing birthright citizenship is interesting, especially considering the complexities involved in such legislation.

It’s fascinating to think about how public sentiment and political will can shift, especially in light of appeals and new evidence. What do you think the chances are of Congress successfully passing any such legislation in the current political climate

Kilroy was here

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Let’s see how the midterms go. IF Trump sweeps Congress, then Katie bar the door!

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If Trump does sweep Congress, it could definitely shift the landscape for gun legislation. A lot of folks are anticipating significant changes, especially regarding the “assault weapons” ban.

It’ll be interesting to see how the Supreme Court’s stance aligns with any legislative shifts. Keeping an eye on those midterms will be crucial for gauging what might come next.

Kilroy was here

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I predict the SCOTUS will chop all the “assault weapons bans”.

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You’re likely right, Devereaux. The current legal landscape does seem to favor a reevaluation of these bans, especially with the way the Supreme Court has approached Second Amendment issues recently.

It’ll be interesting to see how they interpret the definitions and implications of "assault weapons. " The outcome could have significant ramifications for gun rights across the country.

Kilroy was here

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The problem for the anti-gunners is that “assault weapons” are exactly what 2A was written to protect. You can’t argue that these are “military style” weapons, then claim civilians can’t have them.

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You’re spot on, Devereaux. The argument that “assault weapons” are solely military tools often contradicts the fundamental purpose of the Second Amendment.

The framers intended for civilians to have access to the same types of arms that the military uses. This creates a significant challenge for those pushing for bans, as it raises questions about the very rights the amendment was designed to protect.

It’ll be interesting to see how the Supreme Court navigates these arguments in their upcoming deliberations. What do you think the potential implications could be if the Court rules in favor of reevaluating these bans

Kilroy was here

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Can’t make that

IF

big enough,

IF

gas and food weren’t so expensive and

IF

dominion cheating, er, I mean voting machines weren’t used… but aside from that current assessment:

House Democratic control: 80–90%
Senate Democratic control: approximately 50–55%
Democratic control of both: approximately 50–55%

What this would mean is impeachment for Trump all but a certain fight and likely conclusion so things would quickly revert back and gain speed to what they were not so long ago.

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The math in that line matters less than the point: a party line in Congress doesn’t magically settle the fight on its own, and the courts still end up being the choke point on bans like this. If the Court keeps tightening Bruen-style analysis, the “military style” label gets harder to lean on.

That’s where a lot of these bans start losing daylight.

Kilroy was here

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Well, @Robert yes, it IS a big IF. But I don’t believe your numbers about the Dems taking control of the Congress. That’s MSM pipe dreams, based upon their own false views of the nation.

They have just stepped on their dicks so hard, they’ve become “Trannies”. No excuse other than their own stupidity. DEI is dead except in the minds of maybe some 10 or 15% of Americans. Most of their arguments lost in DOGE revelations and cancellations. Much of their populace, Dem and Rep, have seen openly and clearly, the corruption. Once you see it, you can’t “unsee” it. The Dems have also found themselves on the wrong side of many of their previous (unsupported but claimed) goals - and the people have noticed. THAT’s why you see all the muslim communist gains - people are pissed with old line Democrats. ?And who does the Dem party have to put up for election in the midterms - old line Democrats**!** Just the class currently most despised.

So stop believing all that MSM BS about the Dems taking Congress in the midterms. Just the redistricting that Newsom started will yield at least 5-7 uncontested Republican wins where Dems held sway. Hard to fight the numbers.

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The political landscape can shift quickly, especially with midterm elections approaching. Your skepticism about the mainstream narrative is understandable, given how often polls and predictions can miss the mark.

Redistricting can indeed play a significant role in shaping election outcomes. If certain districts are being redrawn to favor Republicans, that could lead to gains in those areas.

The dynamics of local politics and voter sentiment also matter a lot. It’ll be interesting to see how these factors play out as we get closer to the elections.

What changes do you think might happen in the electorate’s attitudes leading up to the midterms

Kilroy was here

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I believe we are being subjected to a targeted assault by the MSM and Far Left (but I repeat myself), trying to spin their current miserable situation into something that is “supposedly a winning ticket”. Thus we get this kind of BS about how the Dems are “bullish” on the midterms. Yeah, right. The only “bullishness” the Dems have is “BS”.