I’m not able to view that image right now. If you re-attach it or paste a direct image link, I can take another look and answer precisely.
If you have a non-image question too, ask it and I’ll answer directly.
Kilroy was here
Interestingly, I have long ago changed my sense of what Jesus looked like. He was a Jew. The Bible was written - for Jews. Jesus came to earth - for Jews. It is, therefore, ridiculous to think of Him as “European”. Yet such confusion - or perhaps wishful thinking has been at the heart of most of the pogroms of Jews in Western “civilization”.
Christians were not “handed an image”; they created the image - all by themselves.
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Yeah, well, when the support Israel to the death thing hits you then you’ll see it a bit clearer than we did it ourselves and see we did it to ourselves.
But you’re not there yet, so, while we wait, was Jesus born in a stable for animals or a cave?
If you answer either then how did the wise men enter a house?
The manger story is simpler than the Christmas scene most of us were handed.
Luke does not say Joseph and Mary arrived in Bethlehem while she was in labor, knocked on an inn door, were turned away by an innkeeper, and were sent to a stable.
Luke says:
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Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem.
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They were already there when the time came for Mary to give birth.
- Mary gave birth, wrapped Jesus, and laid Him in a manger.
A manger is a feeding trough. Luke tells us where Jesus was laid, but never actually says stable, barn, innkeeper, cattle, donkeys, or anything else normally placed in the scene.
Then Luke moves to the shepherds:
The angel tells them:
And gives them a specific sign:
They go immediately and find exactly that:
That is the actual account.
What Scripture gives us:
Bethlehem → birth → swaddling clothes → manger → shepherds watching at night → angel announces Christ was born “this day” → shepherds find Him still lying in the manger.
What Scripture does not give us:
No innkeeper.
No knocking on doors.
No statement that Mary arrived in labor.
No named stable or barn.
No animals gathered around Jesus.
No three kings standing beside the shepherds.
No statement that Jesus Himself was born at night.
The shepherds were in the fields at night, but the angel says Christ had been born “this day.” Luke never gives us the hour of His birth.
The manger is actually one of the most important details because the angel makes it the identifying sign:
You will know you have found the Christ because you will find the newborn child lying in a feeding manger.
A lot of what Christians picture when they hear the Christmas story is tradition filling spaces that Scripture leaves open.
Add in what’s been added in, subtract what’s been subtracted.. and.. well.. you get a long haired white man.
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Matthew 2:11 gives the wise men a house, and it calls Jesus a “young child,” not a babe lying in a manger. That fits a later visit, after the birth scene in Luke, rather than the familiar Christmas tableau with shepherds and Magi gathered around the newborn.
The text is firm about the manger and the shepherds; the stable, innkeeper, animals, and cave come from later tradition or inference. The cave may be an old tradition, but Scripture itself does not settle the location beyond the manger.
Kilroy was here
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None of this is news if you’ve studied the bible.
The homes of the time were usually a combination of home (human domicile) and stable for the few animals.
So having a menger “in the home” was not unusual. But it was NOT a “stable” as we think of it; more like a small area to house perhaps a couple sheep, a mule, a couple chickens - that kind of stuff. “Household pets” would be a modern equivalent, since we no longer hold sheep, oxen, mules, etc.
There are other things said in the bible that aren’t explained well. Herod ordered the slaughter of all children under the age of 2. Yet there is no historical of any such genocide. ?So did it actually happen - and Jews just kept quiet about it. I doubt it. I would propose that the word got out and the Jews fled to Egypt for a couple years to avoid the edict.
?How about when Jesus died. There is no way the timeline stated could be kept if He died on Friday, as most Christian churches claim. But the bible does give us clue as to what happened. The passages where the disciples ask where Jesus wishes to celebrate the Passover meal tells you just what DID happen.
And then there’s Christmas - a totally made-up date.
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The lack of an outside record does not settle Herod’s order either way. Bethlehem was a small village, the number of victims may have been limited, and Josephus was not documenting every local atrocity; Matthew may also be presenting the event in a deliberately Moses-like pattern.
Flight into Egypt is plausible within the text, but it remains an inference rather than something independently documented. On the crucifixion, the chronology is genuinely debated.
The Synoptics present the Last Supper as Passover, while John places Jesus’ death before the Passover meal, on the preparation day.
Some harmonizations appeal to differing calendars or use “Passover” for the broader feast, but the cleanest reading is that the Gospel accounts preserve different chronological presentations.
Kilroy was here
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Good.
Now go back to the passages I mentioned, in Luke 22:10 & Mark 14:13, where the disciples ask Jesus where He wishes to hold the Passover meal. He instructs them to go to the town and follow the MAN who carries water, and when he arrives, to ask the inn keeper to prepare the room upstairs for the meal. THAT tells you WHERE Jesus had the last supper. (NB: In the KJV bible those two passages are identical. ?Where else in the bible do you find two books that have the identical text.
The Essene lived in Jerusalem. There was even a gate called the Gate of the Essene, as noted by Josephus. I asked ChatGTp to make up the case and here it is:
“You now have several pieces that can be put together:
- An unusual male water carrier directs Peter and John to the house.
- There was apparently an Essene presence in Jerusalem.
- Josephus actually refers to an “Essene Gate.”
- The Essenes used a different calendar from the Temple authorities.
- That calendar placed Passover on a different day.
- Jesus’ Last Supper chronology creates a genuine Synoptic-versus-John Passover problem.
- The traditional location of the Upper Room is on Mount Zion, in the general vicinity of the ancient Essene Gate.
None of those individually proves that Jesus ate the Last Supper with Essenes. Taken together, however, they make the hypothesis historically interesting enough that it shouldn’t simply be dismissed.”
I personally think it is more that just “interesting”. I believe it is controlling.
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The clearest example is 2 Kings 19:1–37 and Isaiah 37:1–38, which recount the same Assyrian crisis in nearly identical wording. 2 Samuel 22 and Psalm 18 are also substantially parallel, though not identical in every verse.
That strengthens your observation about Luke 22:10 and Mark 14:13 being deliberate parallel testimony, but the water carrier still doesn’t identify the house as Essene by itself.
The Essene Gate, an Essene presence in Jerusalem, the calendar issue, and the Mount Zion tradition make the hypothesis more than a random speculation; “controlling,” though, requires evidence tying that specific house and man to the Essene community rather than simply fitting the surrounding clues.
Kilroy was here
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Well, then think of the timeline.
Jews believe the day begins at sunset and goes to the next sunset. SO, if Jesus dies just before sunset on Friday, He must be dead 3 days to be OFFICIALLY dead. And He must be officially dead for the prophesy to work - for Jews, to whom He came. So if He died Friday evening, then 3 consecutive sunsets would be Sat-Sun-Mon. He would have arisin MONDAY, not SUNDAY. BUT if He did, iin fact, celebrate Passover with the Essene, then it was: dinner TUESDAY evening, Gethsemene and the Jewish court middle of the night Tuesday, trial, scourging, etc, Wed and Thurs days, crucifiction Thursday, culminating in His death late Thurs just before sunset. THEN dead Fri-Sat-Sun and rises after Sunday begins, or on the third day. But he was dead (our nomenclature) Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night. THAT fulfills the scripture.
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Some of this IS inference. But the bible is full of such places. You must infer things, as the text shows. NOT make up stuff that has no bearing, but infer from the text. Like the birth of Jesus circumstances.
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Because the city said they didnt have no money to support such a thing so Trump spent out of his own pocket between 3-500,000 dollars so the jewish in NY so the Jewish population could have a Parade. Thats why they made him Grand Marshall in was an in kind thank you.
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